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I'll be brutally honest.  I think the new design is Gawd-awful.  I'm hoping that most of us agree.

Let's get some numbers, shall we?

What do you think?  Does the new Daily Kos make you physically ill, like myself.  Do you want Kos to fire his designers and revert to the old design?


NOTE: If you want to see an exhaustive survey -- please "recommend" before exiting.

I've deliberately made this a simple yes/no poll because the change has been so dramatic. It also complicates things when determining the "quantity" of change needed. Everyone has their own metric.

Originally posted to STOP George on Thu Jun 23, 2005 at 11:57 PM PDT.


Daily Kos 3.0 New Design:

56%1294 votes
43%995 votes

| 2289 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  I don't love it or hate it (4.00)
    I miss some aspects of the old design and like some of the new ones. Looking forward to playing with the alternate stylesheets, though I may not be much longer for this community anyway...

    "The reason we had a right to privacy is because Congress didn't stop them." - Tom DeLay

    by OxyLiberal on Thu Jun 23, 2005 at 11:58:06 PM PDT

    •  Yeah, wish there was that choice in poll (4.00)
      I'm neutral about it so far; it works, it's readable, but I don't "love it" or "hate it" because I prefer some things not yet available, so I'm reserving judgement until the full changes are in effect.

      The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. The true danger is when liberty is nibbled away... Edmund Burke

      by CodeTalker on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 06:33:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm neutral about the change... (4.00)
        ...but glad the site looks a bit different. My colleagues were used to seeing me wasting time on the old one, now I might have a few days' slack before they wise up to this one ;-)

        Do you make me sick, or was I just force-fed? - Elvis Costello

        by Doctor Devlin on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 06:35:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  HATE IT HATE IT HATE IT (4.00)
          HATE it. I can't say this strongly enough.

          If it stays like this, you can pretty much kiss my ass goodbye -- this is UNTENABLE.

          Rage, rage, against the lying of the Right.

          by Maryscott OConnor on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 08:00:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  agreed (4.00)
            i'm kinda hatin' on it right now, too.

            when i first popped the site open this morning i was not logged in, and to be honest, it was very difficult to figure out where to go to login.  it was also very difficult to separate the wheat from the chaffe, in that the main page now seems very cluttered.

            i do like the colors; i think they're great.  BUT...

            this fixed width column crap has GOT TO GO. i have a widescreen laptop and the site barely covers half my screen. plus, smaller width columns are very hard on the eyes. i have enough eye strain from working in front of a computer all day. i don't need it exascerated by the sites i visit.

            i won't go away, but i will be pretty dissatisfied if the fixed width issue isn't taken care of pretty soon. i will not be able to read the comments because my eyes will get too tired.

            "Democrats: Always standing up for what they later realise they should have believed in." -Jon Stewart, the Daily Show

            by anna on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 08:16:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Don't leave us, MSOC! (none)
            As a veteran of the Pie Wars surely you'll stick around through this for fine content and endless admiration from us Kossacks.
            OK, so the military fonts and bullet points make it look a bit like a Rage Against The Machine album cover. We still need you to teach us cusswords and make Dylan Thomas sound cool with your tagline.

            Do you make me sick, or was I just force-fed? - Elvis Costello

            by Doctor Devlin on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 08:29:44 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Really? (none)
            You'll leave over the way it looks? Are you joking?

            Progressives believe in a strong, effective American government: balancing budgets, empowering people, & helping the least among us.

            by BrianVA on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 09:00:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Please don't go! (none)
            Graphic design is not a core issue.

            The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

            by expatjourno on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 09:20:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It is if you can't read the site (none)
              The ads are on top of the comments. The text is much harder to read.

              The Democratic Party: Making work, work for working people!"

              by mperloe on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 08:07:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Really? (none)
                I'm using Firefox and Safari on my Mac and Firefox on my PC. No problems with legibility, though I don't think highly of the new design.

                The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

                by expatjourno on Sat Jun 25, 2005 at 03:57:28 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Bummer! (4.00)
            I don't know about you Maryscot,t but my eyesight isn't as good as it used to be so I have my screen set up pretty large as far as type goes. the old DKos worked just fine and now this new thing is all smeared together. Not Good.
            •  Big Type (none)
              Yup, ljb, I'm right there with ya' on the eyesight thing--always have the "view" cranked way up so I can read.  But if I try that now I just get layers of unintelligible (well, illegible anyway) type. WAAAAAAAH.  (You know all of us liberals are crybabies, right?)

              Proud Promulgator of the Agenda of Deliberate Childlessness: we don't have children, we have cats.

              by Mlle Orignalmale on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 06:32:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Read my reply to you in Cheers and Jeers (none)
            GreaseMonkey will fix this problem.

            I swear I can not promote this meme enough.  This is my kick for the day.  Whats most important at this stage is Kos stabilize the design.  Then it can be hacked.

   - Collective Political and Community Journalism by NYers for NYers

            by atomicBirdsong on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 10:12:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  FFS Maryscott... (none)
            I hate it as well. It looks best. But to say you'll leave due to a few lousy graphics and some shitty CSS layout is beneath you, and most everyone else here.

            To ALL of you:

            There is more to this site than the layout and pretty pictures. It is the community and the information. Just because it looks different doesn't make it any less valuable.

            Hell, I don't even see where it's so hard to figure out where things are. Content is still on the left, login and links etc are still on the right. The ads moved to the middle. Big flippin' deal. If you don't like them, support something you love (this site), and buy a subscription! Ads gone. Problem solved.

            Yes, some things are highly annoying and inconvenient. I would rather have them as they are than not to have them at all. I agree that it was time for a site update...I just don't personally like the one chosen. Overall though, as long as I can read posts, make diarys, and learn, I don't give two shits in the wind about anything else. Certainly not enough to threaten to leave over it.

            The problem with America Today: There's a difference between The American Dream, and The American Way.

            by Disillusioned on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 10:29:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Kos moved your cheese! (4.00)

            "Victory means exit strategy" - George W. Bush 4/9/99 | Why Did They Hate America?

            by Addison on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 10:55:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Lame (none)
            I understand your being disapointed, but leaving because of it, that is just lame.

            You're a great diarist and everyone seems to love you here, so why would you make a such an absolute statement like the one above?
          •  you would leave a good discussion (none)
            because of aesthetics?  That seems strange to me.  I prefer the old design, but I'm certainly not going to take my ball and go home.  Jeez.
          •  The ads and the width (none)
            The width will be fixed .. but I'm not crazy about where the ads are.

            Yeah yeah.. subscribe and have them taken off.. but with all the causes to shell out for KOS is LOW on the give list (sorry KOS)

            Everytime I try to look at the Diaries im forced to see the ads again and again. Ive seen them the first time.. if I wanted to do something about them I would have made up my own mind to do so.

            Add to that .. i'm very burnt out on all things marketing at this phase of my life..given our greedy corporate climate.. and seeing those ads force themselves on me doesn't give me warm fuzzies over the KOS layout.

            The ad guys must love it though :/

            Hermaphrodite with attitude!

            by Willadene on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 09:19:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  great comment (none)

          great comment--worthy of a 4 ......snark
    •  you said (none)
      "though I may not be much longer for this community anyway..."

      how come?

      •  Community changes (4.00)
        It's become a lot less enjoyable to come here since the election, and especially since the spring. I don't know what specifically has changed about the tone of most of the commentary on the site, but it's really turned me off, and I find myself closing the site in frustration almost every time I start reading a diary with a bunch of comments. It might just be the quality of discussion; lazy cheap shots fill almost every thread, and way too many people want to kick lots of people out of the party.

        Whatever it is, my irritation with the community has combined with my irritation with the Democrats in Congress. Everyone on here congratulates them on their resistance to Republican policies, but where are their ideas? I know that Dem bills that advance Dem policies have no chance of passing when Congress is being dominated by the other party, but it would be nice to know of their existence. How often do we receive front-page news of some awesome Democrat proposal that we should all get behind and fight for? A lot less often than we hear about Republican policies that we're supposed to fight off.

        Too many people seem to forget it's possible to both resist unfair laws and work to advance your own causes at the same time. I'm tired of only hearing about what my Reps and Senators are resisting or, in Biden's case, doing wrong - and there's been a scarcity of good news involving our guys. Point to Conyers and all, but that's one Dem out of hundreds - where are all the others?

        Anyway, my enthusiasm from last year has been sapped. We live in a disgusting political climate, and for a while this site provided me with a beacon of hope. Now it's turning into just another element contributing to the ugliness of that climate, and it turns me off. I keep waiting for a return to the days I enjoyed, but the site's so huge now that I don't see that happening anytime soon. I come out of here more out of force of habit than anything else.

        That's why I've only made a couple of comments in the past few months. It's hard for me to care too much about the way the site looks now when the substance of it, the thing that made it great, already changed long ago.

        Over and out,

        "The reason we had a right to privacy is because Congress didn't stop them." - Tom DeLay

        by OxyLiberal on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 09:57:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If you are leaving (none)
          Perhaps you could do so a bit more quietly?

          It's not hard to imagine that the majority of the people reading do like the site- giving extensive reasons for leaving seems to serve no purpose other than to drive traffic away.

          And who would want to do that?  Is the site so horrible to you that you'd rather it went away altogether?  I'm annoyed with Democrats in Congress as well, but I sure don't wish they'd all give up and go home.  That would be whole lot worse, right?

          And if you don't want to see the end of dkos, but are just annoyed these days, then why not quietly stop reading?

          That's what I do when I get bored or irritated with a blog.

          I hear what you're saying I just don't get what you're doing.
          •  I was answering a question (n/t) (none)

            "The reason we had a right to privacy is because Congress didn't stop them." - Tom DeLay

            by OxyLiberal on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 02:21:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  wow (none)
            Really blue florida, was that neccesary? Oxy was just answering my question.
            •  I think it was. (none)
              Haven't we seen enough goodbye cruel world diaries?
              •  new members (none)
                do exist. I am one. Not everyone is tired of what you're tired of. I saw Oxy's original post, was curious as to why and asked. Oxy responded. Maybe it would have been different if Oxy had posted a diary but this was 1 comment.

                We should save our claws for the other side, not each other. Not over stuff like this.

                I've said it before and I'll say it again: peace.

                •  I'm pretty new here too (none)
                  But have become addicted to reading dKos over the last couple of months. It was interesting to read Oxy's comments. I'm sure the personality of dKos has changed as people come and go.

                  I'm not sure about the good old days that Oxy and others are familiar with, but I did prefer the look of yesterday. I got a shock this morning. My only objection to the older version was that the diary titles were hard to read in orange. Also when scrolling quickly through a diary looking for new comments, it is easy to miss the red markings because of the orange used in the user/date/time line. I just kind of presumed that this would be improved on with the new look but instead of less orange we got more!
          •  this sounds kind of republican (none)
            let's not grow to fear anything in the marketplace of ideas.  
          •  ok ok. (none)
            sorry all.  sorry oxy.

            I didn't mean it to be mean.  I truly don't get why people need to tell anyone they're leaving.

            And oxy may have been answering a question, but only because he begged the question in a earlier post.

            but no offense meant, truly.
        •  thank you (none)
          I am sorry blue florida jumped on you. That's probably a pretty good example of one reason you may be leaving. You seem to really care about this place and it would probably be a shame to lose you, but no shame in leaving. We all grow out of things that were once fantastic for us.

          This site is probably in a state of transition. Much like I used to feel at home there, prior to the election. The election seemed to change so much for people. I think a slap in the face will do that to you.

          Most of us are pretty scared and frustrated at the turn this country is taking. We are on the cusp of something that could either be a catastrophe or a miracle. It almost seems life or death. No wonder nerves are frayed and voices get raised.

          I wish you all the best Oxyliberal. Thank you again for your response.

        •  Interesting post. (none)
          Someone once told me to be careful to try and assume a leadership role before I was ready to lead.

          Good advice for me and good advice for the party as a whole.

          We spend a lot of time attacking the Karl Roves of the world and waiving around the Downing Street Memos.

          Outrage has its place.

          But once it dies down, the cold light of reason shines out.  And we are still left with John Kerry's lame ass explanation of what he would do differently in Iraq now that we are there.

          We're left with Howard Dean deliberately skirting the subject of Iraq on national TV.

          We're left with a party that tells us what it doesn't like (meddling with Social Security, tinkering with Medicare and Medicaid...) but doesn't tell us what it does want.

          Just keep a few things in mind.

          1. We can't have the dialogue as a minority party.

          2. Until we assume the majority, we cannot begin to more fully develop our ideas.  Our enemies will cut us down.

          3. Good ideas don't just pop up, good ideas that last are nurtured to maturity by an active, curious and enlightened community.

          We have the makings of that here at Kos.  Snarks and rants aside.  There are a lot of good gems and ideas worth exploring more fully.

          I learn a lot on this site, as well as many others.  No site can be everything to everybody, however.
    •  Site Comments (none)
      I asked the Texas KOS people about the site.

      Not pretty.

      1.  There's NO ONE that loves the new look.
      2.  There's several that are open to giving it a chance to sink in.
      3.  Seems too proletariat.

      For what it's worth, I'm a web developer/designer since 91.  

      My comments:

      1.  There's too much white space.  Too little space for stories
      2.  The banner is colors compete with the red (AND AREN'T WE BLUE?!?!?)
      3.  It IS too proletariat.
      4.  It does navigate more simply & better that way.
      5.  It is cleaner in placement (Front Page, ads, Links).

      I do think it can work on people but there's tweeking needing to be done.  

      Just feedback.  ALL IMHO.

      •  Way way too ,much whitespace (none)
        I loved coming to Dailykos and being able to catch most of the available articles and diaries in one screenview. In the redesign, I can't do that.

        I'm all for new designs if they work, but I don't feel this one works.

        I also personally don't buy into the theory that sites need new designs every x period, or they go state.

        The NY Times has had the same webdesign for years. It simply works.

        "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

        by jbeach on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 09:53:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Pushing some pixels... (4.00)
        Hey Puppy, this Dog's been a web-lacky for a bit too.

        I decided it was easier to compare things if I had something to actually work with and look at. Here's a scaled down version, which I hope won't kill the column...

        Here's the full-sized version

        My thinking was:

        1. Scale down the logo and get some headroom back. A big logo could be on the front page, but the rest of them don't need the baggage.

        2. Tone down the text in the logo as well as the diary headers. I made the headers smaller and, I can't believe I did this, made them orange.

        3. Toned down the orange of the utility column another notch and got rid of the stars.

        4. And now for the biggie...I moved the ad column, lock, stock and pies, over to the left side.

        Here's what's neat. I tuned off the ads and grabbed a shot to get the body width. I turned the ads back on and grabbed a shot. I found I could put in the ad column as is and have the works all still fit within 955px (the, ahem...dare I say, progressive standard page width).

        Naturally I think it's nifty because it's how I'd like to see it. What do people think? Hit me with your best shot.

        All in all, I really prefer the 2.0 version.

        Kos revised and nobody died

        by BlogDog on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 01:59:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  what? (none)
        no UT fans at texas kos? When I first saw the site this morning I thought it had been taken over by the Longhorns. Then I saw the lone star in the right and figured Texas Kos was in charge of the redesign ;)
    •  Must we always (none)
      divide opinions so rigidly? It is not realistic... granted, this isn't quite as important here as elsewhere... but anyway...
    •  Alls I Know for Sure... (none) that the text is bleeding over into the links column on the right.

      What I Think is that things take time to get used to.  It's different.  Is it worse?  Maybe.

      What I would like is that the columns are wider.  I find this narrow column trend annoying.  The Times, I presume did this because they had to.  We webbed people should have a choice, n'est ce pas?
    •  I really hate it. (none)
      It's hard to read, with the orange, which on my screen glows like kindergarten paint.  It's blocky and somewhat militaristic in the connotations of the font and graphic aesthetics.  It's clunky seeming.  It's a lot less fun to hang out in and stare at.  I am really, really sorry it's the way it is now.  Change it back, please pretty please!
  •  To get an exhaustive survey... (none)
    Please recommend before exiting.
    •  But what if we (4.00)
      Already voted in the other polls in other diaries on this same thing?  It's exhaustive!  LOL!!!
      •  Here's my 2 cents: (4.00)
        1. Logo is conceptually awful.  The flag is now unrecognizable.  And what's with the type??!!  I read that Kos wanted the type to reflect that "we are at war", but does it have to be that obvious?  There's a lot to be said about subtlety.

        Which brings me to


        2. Everything is too big and spacey.

        3. Get rid of the white margins.

        4. Too bright.  I may have to wear sunscreen soon.

        5. You should not have to pay for good design.  Put the ads in their proper place -- at the margin.

        6.  Overall, it reminds me of a supermarket clearance sale poster.  All that's missing is the cheesy muzak.
        •  But It IS Edgy And Militaristic (4.00)
          I get thoughts of fragging my CO.

          You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can ALWAYS be honest.

          by mattman on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 02:41:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The orange is TOO BRIGHT (4.00)
          I opened the page this morning and was like AAAAAAARGH!!!!  It HURTS!

          And the way the page is split sucks.  Especially if you have a dinosaur of a small monitor.

          Hypocrisy is the homage that vice pays to virtue.

          by JLongs on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 03:01:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree about the color (none)
            First off, thanks to the DKos bunch for the hard work in retooling the site. The layout, etc., will require some retraining on my part: where do I look for the things I want to see? That will come with time, and it's a good layout as it is.

            The color, however, is not nearly as good as the older one. It has punch, but it needs to be "rastafized ten percent less," to play off the old Simpsons joke. At least that's my two bits, coming from a guy who gets way more than he gives to the site.

          •  It burns! It burns! (none)
            The orange is a little bright.  I suspect I will get used to it.
        •  I was up early... (4.00)
          ...logged on to my favorite site and...POW!...I was hit right between the eyes by an enraged pumpkin. Now I'm seeing stars....little orange ones everywhere....OMFingG.

          Stop George...your critique is spot on.

          1. The logo has not only lost its meaning, it has taken over the top inch or so of prime real estate. SCROLL time. Terrible font BTW.

          2. The text was already so tiny, I always has to increase the text display size for every "KOS" window. I suspect the regular text is the same size, but it looks even smaller because everything around it has grown. Big logo with big text. The headers are like Godzilla towering over Tokyo. And since they are in bold CAPS (OF ALL THINGS), the beast is literally screaming at the top if its lungs. Oh, that thought was a bit longish...pardon me while I stop and find the mouse, and SCROLL down a bit.

          3. Which brings me to the narrow design. ITS TOO DAMN NARROW. The page is now 760 pixels wide...the "safe" zone for and 800x600 design base. With larger screens, the emerging design size is 1024 wide with the "safe" width being 955. I thought this was a "progressive" site. Anyway, 760 would be okay, but it has a column, almost in the middle devoted to distracting advertising.

          4. If the advertising column is meant to be annoying and encourage people to certainly accomplishes the first goal. Actually I'm a lifetime subscriber, and I left the ads on thinking I'd be giving them more hits. One of the first things I did today was to turn the ads off.

          5. and a half. With the ads on, the main column (the main point of the site I dare say) is 375 px wide. That's less than half of the width...49%, just about Bush's job approval rating...what's that tell ya? The ads and utility column split a 384px column. That teenie-tiny column only makes sense if you own stock in a company making mice with scroll wheels.

          6. and 3/4. Personally, I don't know how anyone can stand the advertising placement. If the advertising is annoying, and it is, it might just bug people enough, rather than being visually blackmailed and paying the ransom, they simple go elsewhere.

          7. The utility column...the one with "Menu," "About," and "Tools." As if it weren't big enough already, lets make sure every body can find it by making it eye-searing orange, bold text, and sprinkling it with little orange stars. Every one able to find the utilities? where's the the good stuff I really came here for? Oh yeah, way back there, jailed in a narrow cell, reduced to a peep.

          8. Oh and just to make sure I need to SCROLL more, the text line spacing has increased.

          So, too orangy, too scrolly and the main point of the site is being downed out by the giant logo, screaming orange utilities all the while being confined to a narrow cell.

          However, same great content... but please oh please, just let me see it!

          Other than that...maybe blue for the links? What do ya think? I know Bill would like it.

          Maybe green? BTW...You want fries with that?

          Year of the Tiger

          by BlogDog on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 04:41:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's bloody awful, all right (4.00)
            I agree with everything you've said.  I am not going to be bullied into paying for the privilege of turning off the ads, but I swear it must be a conscious decision to make the site-with-ads so intolerable that more people subscribe.

            The brightness is disturbing, also.  It's painful to read this now.  I'm going to be spending a lot less time here if this design prevails, and that's hugely disappointing to me.

            More in sorrow than in anger...

          •  FIREFOX related pointsize comment..... (none)
            When I scale up the pointsize in the page, to read it properly on da Firefox (CTRL +) - the right hand column text cuts off from the left, not the right.

            Lots of tweakin' needed.

            This is both a science and an art. I liked the layout before better - though the whole thig leaves much tobe desired.

            What IS excellenthere is the functionality of the engine. Not the dodgy aesthetics.

            When dealing with the insane, the best method is to pretend to be sane. - Herman Hesse

            by jpwillis on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 06:11:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I love Firefox (none)
              And if you get the Textzoom extension, you don't have to reset the text size for each page.  It lets you change the text size permanently.  :-)

              Speaking of Firefox...I use Adblock aggressively, but not on this site.  (Well, maybe just once, for that one with Dubya and the lipstick.  Just couldn't stand looking at his ugly mug.)  

              However, I see no ads this morning.  Are they not there, or has Kos moved his ads to one of the major adservers, that I've auto-blocked?

              Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic.

              by randym77 on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 06:35:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Same problem (4.00)
              I use Firefox as well (on Linux).  I like to scale the text up too and the right hand column is cutting off the comment column.  The comment column is also WAY too narrow with about 1/2 the screen being wasted.

              The overall aesthetics are poor too.  My basic impression upon viewing the site is that I have entered hell or perhaps Halloween-land.  I keep expecting the Great Pumpkin or maybe Freddie to pop out of the screen with a machete.  Psychologists and  primatologists have long known that primates respond poorly to reddish environments.  It puts them on edge and they respond by trying to flee the scene.  I don't think you want this on a website.

              •  Speaking of Firefox (none)
                I have the Nuke Anything extension which I tend to use if ad-loading breaks the rendering (it turns into a blank page in mid-load!).  I guess the ad placement is designed to keep those of us who use it from getting more screen real estate by killing extraneous columns?  Hard-coding widths is a Bad Design Choice in any case.

                Antebellum plantations: the last time we had an "ownership society" and a "service economy."

                by Taxorgian on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 08:20:11 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  the ORANGE competes with the RED (4.00)

          1. the orange of all the links competes too aggressively with the red -- bad UI -- making the new posts hard to identify

          2. the line-height is too high for the diary lists (i.e., the space between each line in a diary headline) -- making them hard to read and parse

          3. flag is now harder to identify as a flag

          4. desaturate the orange

          5. the width of the featured/front-page diaries is too narrow -- making them harder to read

          all of these are easily fixable.

          cheers --

          •  also to add... (none)

            also to add,

            6)  in the "view comment ratings" view, the rater's name is to the extreme left and the rating given is to the extreme right -- they don't even look like they're on the same planet.  +extremely+ difficult to read.

            easily fixable.

            cheers --

        •  Have to agree about the flag. (none)
          I didn't notice until you pointed it out but that really does need to be changed. I'm pretty ok with the rest of the stuff. Desaturate the orange and let me try the different stylesheets and I'll be good to go.

          "The diesel engine can be fed with vegetable oils and would help considerably in the development of agriculture of the countries which use it." R. Diesel, 1911

          by nuttymango on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 04:44:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  1. Horrid Logo. 2. Breaks the Eye (4.00)

           1.  The "new, edgy" militaristic logo is, honestly, horrid.  Just dumb-looking, really dumb-looking.  Please, Kos, if you're tired of the old logo (I'm not), that's fine and it's, after all, your website.  But pleeeeaaaase, shop a different logo around to your friends, family, confidants and give the internets something more worthy.

           2.  This three-column thing just assaults the eye.  The other design flooooooowwwwwed, this one lurches about like a mechanical Frankenstein monster.  Clunk.  Clunk.  I know, I know, your designers (bless their hearts) said, "Hey!  We can do this!"  And so they did.  But, there's an old addage in design, marketing, business, sports, human relations, etc:  just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do something.  We Deep Southerners have a saying:  "Why does a dog lick himself?  Because he can."  Just because your designers (bless their hearts) can do what they've done, is no reason for them to have, well, licked themselves.




          . . . religion is not a syllogism, but a poem. H.L. Mencken

          by BenGoshi on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 05:51:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Agree with each point you make... (none)
          especially the "big and spacey" observation.

          It may just take some getting used to--it's always hard to change!

          I had no idea that was a flag in the logo!  It looks sort of like the upholstery on an outdoor  chaise lounge at the Summer cabin.

          The font, to me, suggests "Soviet."

          But none of these things are very important to me.  I'm here for the ideas and personalities!

        •  agree 100% (4.00)
          This is eye-searingly bad.

          One thing I remember from my graphics class in college: don't use red text on a white background, because it's too hard to read.  This shade of orange is far too close to red.  :-P

          Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic.

          by randym77 on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 06:27:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The orange really is too much for my (4.00)
          ...eyes.  I can deal with the ads in the middle of the page, but the orange gives me a throbbing headache.  Please, please choose a softer shade of orange!
        •  Hey, Kos (4.00)
          There really is too much white space.  This is a word-based blog, and we can navigate word space much more quickly with our eyes than we can our with browsers.

          Already, the end result for me is greatly slowed use of the site, not because I'm not used to the new design but because there is so much less content in my browser window.  As such, I'll never be able to read the new site as quickly as I read the old site.

          I hope you'll consider fixing this or returning to the old design.


        •  it's cool to have change (4.00)
          but I am having a hard time reading.
          I'm really openminded about web changes for sure and love the hard work and the new features but I can't seem to concentrate on the words and read the site.  white seems very white and the orange and red kind of float, in a freaky 3D effect, font is a little harder for my brain to parse.

          maybe I will rapidly adjust and once again be able to perceive content.  don't mind any logo changes, that's not my business.  just want to be able to efficiently read the site.

          by kate mckinnon on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 07:27:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  For the life of me, I can't understand why (none)
            you would re-design a site to make it difficult to read.  The combination white/narrow columns is a killer.  

            I hope the style sheets fix this.  Otherwise, I don't think I'll be able to live with it - my wrists aren't going to be able to handle it.

        •  I agree (none)
          with the white margins, too plain. Otherwise, I think it looks great. If we want to participate on dailykos, we will regardless of what it looks like. Let us not be dickheads!
        •  I feel guilty about saying this ... (4.00)
          There's some of the "nice Catholic girl" still in me, I guess. I was brought up with Emily Post etiquette drilled into me.

          So, let me put it this way ... Say you have a very dear friend whose home you've been in a thousand times and you've always liked the decor. And you get a phone call from this friend to say that they'd hired a hot new interior decorator to redo the place and it's not quite done, but come on over and see for yourself.

          And you get there and you think it's awful and amateurish. And your dear friend looks you straight in the eye and says "So, what do you think?". Well, the well-bred Emily Post-trained lady pauses for not more than a single beat and says "There's such an interesting feel to the design. It's so cutting edge! Let me breathe it in for a while."

          So, as for the redesign of dKos ... There's such an interesting feel to the design. It's so cutting edge! Let me breathe it in for a while.

          [I feel like Lucy Ricardo.]

          "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

          by Glinda on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 08:43:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Don't get exhausted! (none)
        You need to save your energy!<G>

        I don't know, I just saw the new design this morning...I am reserving judgement.

        Not sure I like the comment box off to the left (on my screen anyway)...I feel like I'm tilting that way...oh what the hell, I am way past tilting left...LOL

        "And on the eighth day, God created Starbucks as far as the eye can see, and he said, 'Give Me venti cappucino--I am exhausted'." Lewis Black

        by Revel on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 05:32:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm thinking (none)
          That most of the issues for me are resolved because of my monitor.  I have a 21" monitor and everything is laid out fine, exactly where it should be.  I saw another complaint about the responses NEXT to the diary.  I don't have that problem.  Anyway, before I went to bed last night I realized the reason the front page doesn't bother me is that ht I only spend  about 3% of my dKos time there.  
    •  worth noting... (4.00)
      the redesign's approval ratings are as bad as Bush's.

      and we know what we want that to mean for him.

      The sound of no hands clapping

      by RabidNation on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 01:36:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If you're looking for an exaustive poll (4.00)
      you should provide exaustive options. Love/Hate is a bad choice; some people might like it in general but hate one particular aspect, or hate it in general but like particular aspects.

      There is a heaven, but ill never get there... i keep respawning...

      by Sandals on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 04:19:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I LOVE it! (none)
      Well, the comments don't flow well yet, but that'll get fixed in time.  The new shade of orange is pretty, and I think "The State of the Nation" is much more to the point and the stars drive the point home.  The military font style for the logo really drives the point home that we mean business!
    •  If You're Using MS Explorer (none)
      You have to scroll to the bottom to recommend.

      There is a wisdom of the head, and a wisdom of the heart.-Charles Dickens

      by Ranting Roland on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:54:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Im cool with it... (3.50)
    My only concerns are:

    1.) Narrowness

    2.) Can't see diaries from inside another diary or reading mainpage story comments

    That's it.

    I am fairly certain the narowness will get corrected.  I think.  I hope...


    Join Sherrod Brown and "Grow Ohio" from the grassroots.

    by ttagaris on Thu Jun 23, 2005 at 11:58:24 PM PDT

    •  way too narrow on the main column... (none)
      •  I love it (none)
        I'm a harsh design critic (see my comments at TPM Cafe--whew, did I get flamed!) and I like the redesign. The ads in the middle are a radical departure, but ergonomically they make sense.

        My first impression on coming was ugh, those colors and ugh, that logotype! Right away I saw that the logo is too wide for its space. It jams in right/left. The colors in general are quite burnt.

        But this is also about functionality and not merely decorative choices. On that deeper matter I really like this redesign. It sacrifices a little for clarity, but that's not a bad thing. The depth of the site is still here and even more accessible if anything.

        But fix the logo's spacing. It's crammed, and the 'K' is a precious one-off in that font that draws too much attention to its overwrought self.

        •  Note on the colors and logo (none)
          The site's new orange actually clashes with the logo's orange. The logo is desaturated and complex, while the geometric shapes that edge off it are highly saturated and different in hue. It's one of those so-close-it's-actually-way-off things. Doesn't matter which monitor I use.

          I've already talked about the logo spacing and that awful, precious 'K.'

          The logo's starting to bother me more. The old logo drew more coherence from the image inside--flag-waving man with the 'o' in 'Kos' circling his head. Now, the old logo had that awful typography so I'm glad to see it gone. But using the same image in a new banner head isn't working. It doesn't crop properly for this usage. The flag is fine, but the drama of it being 'waved by a human' is carried ENTIRELY by that one little hand at bottom right in the new execution. It's too much for that one little hand to be doing.

          You can probably afford to hire an illustrator to do a redo.

          But on the overall my vote is still with 'love it.'

  •  To much White and dotted lines... (4.00)
    "it's like a giant white bone caught fire in the sky." the bright red and orange are like halloween and christmas exploding together on the 4th of July.....sides that..if those things are fixed I will change my sig. It's back to being a steps. We make the sight what it here's hoping.

    *I've gone blind and I can't stop throwing up*

    by Chamonix on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:14:28 AM PDT

    •  I agree.... (4.00)
      The colors are too stark....white too bright and orange Its hard on older eyes.

      Layout doesn't bother me.

      •  leans to the right! (4.00)
        Holy smokes.  The new design leans to the right.  

        We read from left to right, this site reads from right to left with the weight of the design on THAT side of the page.

        Stick with the left orientation for that and other obvious reasons.

  •  I voted Love it (4.00)
    because I think that with some serious tweaking, it could be a pretty cool thing, and trend-setting, as most of what we do here is.

    My three, and yes there are only three -- changes would be:

    1. reduce the leading from 1.5 to 1.25 or even 1.15. the line spacing here is making it very hard to read for long periods of time.

    2. alter the colors so the Orange is less ORANGE!!!!, and turn the white background into a 5% at most gray to reduce the damn glare. I think I'll need my sunglasses soon.

    3. Make the left-hand text field a variable width instead of the current fixed width. That would eliminate all of the spoacing problems others have complained about.

    the ads are okay. I love the Menu/About/Tools section, including the little stars. I think that, if we mute the orange in the logo to match the newly-muted orange I'm hoping for, that it would look just fine.

    Support our terrific open source media project! Donate to ePluribus Media today!

    by Timroff on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:18:17 AM PDT

  •  I only have a few problems with it (none)
    some CSS issues with Opera where the menu is displaced on diary pages, and the narrowness of the main column.  It must be possible to make the nav and ad columns could be fixed width and the main panel takes up all remaining available space.
  •  At first blush, I like it (none)
    a little change now & then never hurts...kinda nice, actually.
  •  This is awful. I mean it. (4.00)
    I'm not retirement age yet, but this damned well HURTS MY EYES!

    It's like somebody turned over web design to a bunch of fifth graders.

    Put it out of its misery!  It's horrible!   I don't care how many nifty features it has, bright white and orange are for small spaces or quick "shots" to draw attention, not to try to read anything serious or important.

    "I came to see that news is what people want to keep hidden, and everything else is publicity". ...Bill Moyers, 5/15/05

    by revsue on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:21:53 AM PDT

    •  That's how I feel. (4.00)
      But mostly, I think the narrow story column sends a message out there to the readers that the priority here IS NOT the stories. To me this layout tells the reader that the priorities here are the ads.

      Also, I have a large monitor, and the fixed width columns are a waste of my space. Hard to read and distracting from the important news.

      Just my 2 cents

      •  Exactly. User experience / readability (4.00)
        should be top priority.

        There is a reason why Google is successful. Google ads are unobtrusive and clearly separated. Also, Google focuses on the user experience. The user experience and readability should be the prime focus of a well-loved website.

        With the new design having too much focus on the ads, the user is left with a mixed impression about the intentions and focus of the website. Just what is this website really about? What is the main point that a new user strolling by should focus on? The latest Bush outrage? Electing Democrats? Or some Radar magazine and a Democratic Singles Network.

      •  I have a small monitor (none)
        And the stories get a little under half the total space.  I posted a very crude fix below, but I'm sure somebody else can do better.

        If you think you're that far ahead, then get the chips in the middle of the table!

        by theran on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 10:59:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly (none)
        Everything pixella said.

        I kept wondering when Wonkette would grow up and have a readable design like Kos, and then Kos went and copied her! But with 900% more ORANGE. (But less assplay of course).

        This site hurts my eyes. I've noticed that I grimace and squint reflexively now when I reach for the bookmark. That can't be a good thing.

        Please refocus the site for the readers', not the ads and designers' cleverness.
  •  My big concern is the readability (4.00)
    the white is really hard on the eyes and the narrow columns make it difficult to read.  And why the huge left margin?  Seems like wasted WHITE space.

    Overall, I'm not crazy about the design, but so what.  It's the ability to read that really matters.

    Although for the record, that "K" is Roved.  Seriously.  

  •  I like it (none)
    It's neww, and will take some getting used to, but I think it's a bit "snappier" than the old dailykos.
    •  Snappier? Maybe (none)
      It has kind an agressively confrontational edge to it. That may be a good thing, to get us fired up to do battle with the Republicans, but I'll bet you the number of flame wars here are going to incress in the coming weeks as an inadvertent side affect of this design.

      Come see the house that Tom Delay built.

      by Goldfish on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 01:08:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  WTF Are YOU Talking About (4.00)

        Yeah, YOU!

        Got a PROBLEM with that?

        Wanna piece a me?

        Get outta my face!

        I am the same old Mattman as I ever goddamn was!  

        Got that?

        Talk to the hand.

        I'm a goddamn pacifist! GOT THAT?

        I feel just damn fine.

        You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can ALWAYS be honest.

        by mattman on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 02:49:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You sig (none)
          sorry to make a completly ot comment on your sig, but I had not read it before.

          I like the intention of it, but i have a suggestion: rather than saying:
          You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can ALWAYS be honest.

          how about:

          You might not always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can ALWAYS be honest.

          As I understand it: It is the matter of intention. Can, implies - in my opinion - a choice or ability, but that is exactly your point, one does not always have a choice, if one does not know.

        •  You forgot (none)
          "I'M WALKING HERE"


          "YOU LOOKING AT ME?"

          Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried. -Winston Churchill

          by roysol on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 10:06:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Is the Font Size Smaller (4.00)
    or is my asshole just tighter tonight?

    If they weren't on to me I'd be worried. To not be part of their dossier is to not leave a record, to not be part of the passion of our time- LewLubka

    by NorthDakotaDemocrat on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:26:24 AM PDT

  •  soften the background (4.00)
    the contrast may be what is driving me batty.
  •  Only half of my screen? (4.00)
    I am fine with the colors, fonts etc. Someone has to decide how to do them and thats okay.

    But why use onley some 50-60% of my screen? I did buy this 20'' flat screen to get the most possible information on one screen. Reducing the blog to use only 60% is a waste of screenarea.

    Whats so bad with floating (left) column width?

  •  If the final style sheet layout is wider (4.00)
    and the ads aren't stuck in a column down the middle like a road stripe (imagine the complaints about the Bush 'lipstick on a pig' ad with the current layout -shudder-) I can live with things evolving from here.

    I'm not the biggest lover of drastic change, but I understand Kos needing to feel that his site is not static and evolving with the changing times.

    Make the layout wider so its easier to read, kill the ads being in the middle, and maybe mute the color scheme a tad to make it easier on the eyes and I say go from there.

    Somebody get Hannity his enlistment papers... its time!

    by LeftHandedMan on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:47:20 AM PDT

  •  I like the idea of changing once in a while (none)
    My only problem with it I guess is the color scheme.  The white background is a bit much and I think the orange is too bright.  Tone down the color scheme(not change it!) and I think it would be o.k.  

    I understand the urge to move to a militaristic/patriotic theme.  

    "They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program." - G.W. Bush; 11/2/00

    by pilotweed on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:48:03 AM PDT

  •  As commented elsewhere... (4.00)
    ...visual distractions, including bright colours create difficulties for us older guys with poorer eyesight.

    I guess that factor won't carry too much weight with you younger guys with your brave new world, though.

    New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.

    by Welshman on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:49:04 AM PDT

    •  I'm not that old yet, but (none)
      I have poor eyesight, and you're right.  Either the font or font color change with the Recommended List has made it very jumbled.  I do like the new grapics though.  
      •  I'm already skimming (4.00)
        I have been trying to read some of the diaries but I find myself giving up after a short while.  In the old version, I read all the comments.  Now, no way.

        I don't have poor vision.  But I will go blind if I keep this up.  So what gives?  I move on to Atrios and Gilliard and really READ.

  •  i can't see the benefit (4.00)
    what am i supposed to see that balances out my sore eyes?

    crimson gates reek with meat and wine/while on the streets, bones of the frozen dead -du fu (712-770)

    by wu ming on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:51:31 AM PDT

  •  blech (4.00)
    wanna see my bon scott impersonation? choking on my own vomit here.

    do I resist change? no. but shit, this looks like the same third-rate blogware I use on my crap blog- not like a polished, professional site. basic layout is aaaggghh... - (ads down the middle? WTF? that is AGGRESSIVELY FUCKING ANNOYING and is certainly enough to put me off from buying any products or services there - I don't buy things that annoy me). text displays for shit. WAY too much white. and reading as I do on a 15" laptop screen, hopelessly unfriendly - I spend half my time scrolling.

    sorry, Kos, but this struck out for me completely in the readability and useability stakes. I appreciate your desire for a change, and like some of the new shit (site header's cool). but this just doesn't work, and functionality's gotta come before aesthetics.

    The sound of no hands clapping

    by RabidNation on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:55:13 AM PDT

  •  I voted for the love... (none)
    ... because change won't kill us, and Kos deserves to get some respect for having the cahones to try it.  I may not like it in the long run, but change is kinda cool too.  I like change.

    Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

    by d3n4l1 on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:58:49 AM PDT

  •  I love it. (4.00)
    Halloween is my favorite holiday.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I have an inexplicable urge to mix myself a very large glass of Tang.

  •  You need more options (none)
    I like the new colors, but hate the new front page layout. I'm not keen on some of the way certain things are now displayed, but I do like having a direct link to my user page on every page, not just the front (this was such a new brainer, it's amazing it took this long for it to be put in).

    All and all it's a B- site design, readable, usable, not unpleasent to look at generally, but with it's annoying aspects.

    Come see the house that Tom Delay built.

    by Goldfish on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 01:01:47 AM PDT

  •  Left Texas, gone to Tennessee (4.00)
    Texas Burnt Orange to Tennessee Orange.

    I have no real problems with the new layout. Fonts and contrast/brightness, however are another matter. The increased spacing makes the site easier to see, but too bright. The fonts seem chosen without due attention to overall presentation and ease of reading.

    Brightness/contrast:  The orange looks brighter, almost painfully so. It may not actually be changed, it just looks lighter and brighter, possibly as a function of the increased white space. If the blank left column were grayed down, it would lower the overall brightness, add to contrast and make the site more readable.

    Fonts  The fonts are all gothic (sans serif). The eye processes smaller text more easily in a serif font e.g. in diaries and comments, whereas gothic fonts are very good for contrasting headings, headlines, etc.  Look at the research on font perception. The increased space between lines does help perception of gothic type, but it also tends to break up thoughts, and lends itself to a Bush-onian style of line-by-line rather than sentence-by-sentence reading.

    A specific font & layout weakness is The State of the Nation. It is too small, not at all noticeable. You might as well remove it unless it is made to stand out more. The font needs to be larger, and laid out more compatibly with the site title.


    •  Completely with you on ... (none)
      ...font choice. San serif body type is especially hard on old eyes.


      Writing dialog George Lucas so terrible at is. --Yoda

      Visit The Next Hurrah

      by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 05:17:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Anti-aliasing (none)
        San serif can be easier to read on-screen. However, on my monitor, the font anti-aliasing is terrible, to the pont of being unreadably blurred. None of the characters are sharp.

        The font choice is horrifically bad. Completely unreadable. No of the characters are distinguishable.

        Text at the left can work well (it does at The Next Hurrah), but the layout here is an unusable mess.

  •  I love it (none)
    Only thing I'd adjust is the width.
    Colors and logo are nice.
    It seems very crisp and clean. I like that.

    If it's too bright...  you could turn the brightness down on your monitor or something.

    i think its almost perfect =)

  •  Hey lets be fair here... (4.00)
    First things first...
    Even if people dont love it, Kos should be commended for making the effort to improve his site.  Its easy to tear things apart.

    I like it...I knew when I saw it that it would be a little too flashy for some people but I found it refreshing-

    My biggest beef is with the stenciled "Daily Kos" headline.
    A thick font should be used instead.  In its current form, it comes across as almost militant but perhaps that was the point.
    The margin with the tabs is a little difficult to read because of the white on orange.  If it could be outlined in black or some contrasted color it would be easier on the eyes.

    Overall, well done!

  •  You would have a very (none)
    different poll had you given an 'keep it with changes' option...

    Help send children to summer camp: CLICK HERE

    by free speech zone on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 02:01:02 AM PDT

    •  True... (none)
      Yes, but then there is the question of "how many changes".

      I wanted to keep it simple.

      I would have voted to keep the original design with minor changes.

      There's just too many bad elements in this current design for me to even consider otherwise.

  •  asdf (4.00)
    It's too white and too orange.   Looking forward to being able to move the ads out of the middle.  I tend to like change, but this needs to be tweaked.
  •  unreadable text (4.00)
    yeah, i posted this in the longer front page thread,  but might as well echo some of the previous posts again: the text is hard as hell to read -- it's the most important f'in thing on the site, and if we can't read it or browse the page without our eyes flipping out, it's going to suck.  Kos doesn't need to go all blue like Atrios (which is SO much easier on the eyes), but cut us some slack here.  

    "I want my country back!" - Howard Dean (proud member, reality-based community)

    by ziggy on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 02:15:26 AM PDT

    •  With ClearType (none)
      I use a laptop at home and an lcd panel at work.  With ClearType on, the old layout was sometimes difficult to read.  Now the whole site is much easier to read.  Not only that, it just looks newer and fresher.  I don't know what it looks like without ClearType-that may be the problem.

      "injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" ~The Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King, Jr.

      by jjhare on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 06:02:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What happened to the Profiles? (none)
    I voted to keep this.  Everything needs tweaked now and then, and the old design was stale. However, where are the profiles at the top of everyone's page.  Hasn't anyone else noticed?

    I'm not the smartest fellow in the world, but I can sure pick smart colleagues. FDR & KGW

    by kathleenw on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 02:23:46 AM PDT

  •  New Design (none)
    I like it. Anyway, I'm not so interested in design, about which everyone makes such a fuss nowadays, as if it's some kind existential statement. Good content on a black-and-white page without pictures is fine by me. Now Kos has good content, we all know that, and now he has a new design which he obviously likes, otherwise he wouldn't have chosen it. So let's all enjoy it and get the Republican's asses.
  •  Who cares? (none)
    I can still read it and I can still kill the ads. Designers, like dogshit on the sidewalk, will always be with us, and will always be selling poor gullible fools their snake oil. Live with it and move on. Worry more about content.

    "Lash those conservatives and traitors with the pen of gall and wormwood -- let them feel -- no temporising!" -- Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1837

    by Ivan on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 03:18:44 AM PDT

  •  It's fun. (none)
    I like it.  After a few minutes though, the brightness became uncomfortable and I had to move further from the screen to give my eyes a break.

    Good for you, Kos.  This is in the new Democratic spirit -- no more playing it safe by conceding to the conventional wisdom.

  •  I think it is much sharper (none)
    There is a lot of wasted space on the left and right sides of the screen, but very well done.

    The sharing of joy and happiness can help us defeat the cold and darkness of this administration.--Carnacki

    by DCDemocrat on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 03:45:43 AM PDT

  •  Sorry I Voted No... It's Fine (none)
    I'm just glad to read the liquid version is on the way.

    Orange is really a bold color. And this is a bold site. But I kinda wish it were a more savvy (if predictable) deep red (metallic blue accents, lest anyone question our patriotism?). Ah hell...

    The ads redesign hopefully helps revenues to support this community. Where ads can be used to fund in an acceptable fashion, then great. God knows the party and progressive orgs need our contributions.

    Wars of choice are wars of crime.

    by TX Unmuzzled on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 03:58:18 AM PDT

  •  Reality-Based Community? (none)
    I appreciate your honesty in clearly stating what outcome you wanted for your poll. I wonder what the results would have been if you had gushed about how great the design was first and then asked how many people agreed with you?

    Better yet, though, would have been an neutral or balanced introduction to get a true measure of Kossack's reactions. Then again, I doubt you would have attracted nearly as many recommendations and comments then!

  •  I'm in Technical Commincations (4.00)
    as a profession. I'm an editor. To my eye, the page is much too narrow and cluttered. Don't like the ads in the middle of the important content.

    I agree with a poster above who says the flag in kos' logo is now unrecognizable.

    The orange doesn't bother me, but the white is quite glowy, and I can see how the colors could be problematic for those with any type of vision challenges.

    I am bothered by the line spacing. There seems to be extra spacing within titles (i.e., "Protect yourself at WiFi hotspots with PublicVPN") and then not enough space between the title and the content.

    Of course, none of this matters because to me, this is still the best blog on "the Internets," and I would still come by every day if it were fuchsia and Times New Roman and all in frames!

  •  diary title font is too large (none)
    I rather have the font smaller so more can be viewed without scrolling.

    SOCIAL SECURITY: Invented by Democrats yesterday, Protected by Democrats today

    by mollyd on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 04:30:08 AM PDT

  •  where's the 'eh' poll option? (none)
    I like:  the new redesigned logo at the top.

    I hate:  the way the ads are now in the center of the page.

    Sturm und Drang -- poking at culture's soft underbelly since 2005.

    by magpie02141 on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 04:31:53 AM PDT

  •  The boxes don't line up right on my screen (none)
    and I use firefox and also tried it on IE (retch).

    It doesn't strike me as professional looking as the other design. But .... agreed that the content is priority so I will deal.

  •  For crying out loud . . . (none)
    give it a chance! You guys sound like Garth . . . .do you fear change? We are extremely lucky that this site exits, at least I feel that way. It has been a great outlet for my angst.
    I admit when I opened the site this morning, it was awkward, but when I closed it and came back, it looked a little different and more friendly.
    Get over the new format and evolve a little. Let's deal with what's really important and not the design of a web page!


    by jhewett on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 05:24:21 AM PDT

  •  The diary headline should be the first thing read (none)
    I like simple sites. The new site is starting to be too "all over the place".

    I liked the previous site because it had focus - you visited DailyKos to read diaries. It was obvious since the diaries were front and center. The new design has a lot of competing elements and the advertising seems to be where your eyeball naturally falls to first (which confuses the intent of the site).

    After reading the ads I go to the logo, which just seems a little amateurish. Strong logos translate well into black and white -  this logo would look like mush in black and white.  It just seems amataurish to me. I would have liked the stripes of the flag simplified to just basic black or gray stripes (eleminate the undertones) and then have the sitename under these waving stripes in more of a block. When the logo takes up that much real estate it smells of 1998 web design :-) I just like smaller, easily defined, clean logos.

    So first my eyes drift to the ads, then my eyes fall to the logo and then my eye goes to the navigation and only after all of that do I read the diary. It looks better without ads but do you really want people to be coerced into subscribing. I think more people will just get lost and leave. Where the ads are now it is almost as bad as a pop ups.

    I think, if the diaries get so little front page space we are going to lose repeat visitors. The diary headline is more important than even the logo. It needs to be the focus - this is our meat and potatoes.

    I like the navigation, the orange doesn't bother me, (but maybe a add a neutral accent color behind some blocks to tone it down?). Overall, i am not in the hate it camp-  more of in the "it could be better" camp.

    I hope this helps.

    •  I read your rationales... (none)
      The militaristic edge is a good idea for this site redesign, and I did get that immediately. Especially with the "state of the nation" sub header. Why not make the Kos logo smaller and above that and give the diaries more space?

      It's nice to get feedback but too much could drive anyone insane - I feel for you - good luck working this out :-)

  •  It is really too early to tell completely, (none)
    since it is natural to rebel against change at first, at least for me.  Maybe I'll feel differently in a couple of days.  First impressions though is that the print is too small, and there is wasted space on the sides.  But the light grey, or whatever that color is is really soothing, and the orange isn't bad against it as long as it is just a little orange at a time that your'e looking at.  

    Why not make it a little wider, so that the print could be a little bigger and a little darker, and then everything might be perfect in my estimation.  I like the little stars.

  •  Where's the shades of grey (none)
    selection in the poll? I am not sure yet, as some of it is kind of cool looking, but not sure if I like the rearrangement (and separate log on page.

    "And on the eighth day, God created Starbucks as far as the eye can see, and he said, 'Give Me venti cappucino--I am exhausted'." Lewis Black

    by Revel on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 05:34:34 AM PDT

  •  WoW (none)
    what an eye popper ! LOL

    My only real gripe to be honest is going to be addressed - fixed width and scroll hell - hopefully that gets fixed soon, otherwise i have an aweful lot of white distracting space to look around

    also, whats up with this ?
    Post Comment

    HTML Tags:
    Bold = Bold
    Italics = Italics
    linked text = Linked text

    huh ?LOL.

    Let the Democratic Reformation Begin

    by Pounder on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 05:35:56 AM PDT

  •  I dont love or hate it either (none)
    Visually, I think its fine, although it places the ads in a central, "pillar" position. Everything seems to pivot around them, and they come off as the central feature.

    Also, I miss the login forms on each page. Instead we've got a link.

    FInally, when I do log in, the right-hand gutter with the diaries gets cropped. A CSS problem?


    by odum on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 05:36:24 AM PDT

  •  kos3.0 (none)
    I Like It. Nice Job
  •  Neither (none)
    I just have one beef with it - there is no longer a login form on the front page.  You have to click the link and then login - extra, annoying step that we all have to take.

    It might make sense to do that for a community where not everyone has accounts, but here I'm assuming everyone has accounts and logs in.  Why not put the form on the front page like before?

  •  It's got a Howard Dean-like edge to it! (none)
    I like it---good job, Kos. I generally fear change tho, so it's going to take some getting used to. I do miss the little "Enjolras" flag-waving guy (at least that's always who he was in my head). Anyway we could get more of him into the logo?

    "Do you hear the people sing? Singing the songs of angry men. It is the music of a people who will not be slaves again. When the beating of your heart echoes the beating of the drum. . . . "

  •  Now that the seizures have abated... (4.00)
    I think I like it!
  •  Good Job (none)
    I opened dKos this morning and was instantly able to find everything and navigate around.

    It is hard to design, program and, release new web pages and maintain the previous functionality but, I think the programmers have done it.

    I think the use of the available space is much improved.

    An empty limosine pulled up and George W. Bush got out.

    by beerm on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 05:55:56 AM PDT

  •  Not enought text area (none)
    Overall, I like the new design, but I wish there were more room for text (the main "news" stories) for the main page. It almost seems as if the text area was an afterthought.

    New Granada: tomorrow's

    by monkey knife fight on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 05:59:31 AM PDT

  •  Ugly, and won't work on IE5 (none)
    Ugly is a matter of taste. I can live with ugly, besides I come here for the content.


    The New Kos won't work on IE5. Which really isn't a problem because, as Kos says, "We're not supporting IE 5.x." In case you're wondering, IE5 renders dKos as a single long, narrow column.

    So, hooray for the rest of you. As for me and my Mac OS 9.2, this is the best I can do (NS7 eats up too much memory). Whassat? Buy a new computer? Upgrade? Sure. Right after I pay rent, utilities, student loans and car payments.

    I'd complain, but, really, what's the use? This is progress.

    The New Kos is the New Coke.

  •  It's about the color... (none)
    way too bright.  I liked the muted brown of the old version.

    Set-up isn't bad...and I understand that kos wants to move on to a new version of scoop.  It's more powerful and has some new features, but the color has go to be reconsidered.

    It's a "toy" color.  The kind one would see in toy packaging.  Not one that makes the readers take the content seriously.

    •  PS. the color is totally different... (none)
      on my mac using Safari than it is on my PC using Foxfire.  The mac is ORANGE and the PC is a really weird shade of red.

      Both are toy colors.  Great to attract the eyes of kids in a store.  Kos, I'm not one to bash anything too much (except Bush), but seriously, reconsider the color.  The new scoop is fine, but change the color.  It keeps one from taking the content seriously....and that's important.

  •  I'm not sure yet (none)
    I think it will just take some getting used to.  I have to say, it took me by surprise, even though I knew it would be changing.
  •  I really like (none)
    the new design... I just wish that the ads were on the other side of the diaries.. I understand that they get looked at more where they are... but i would have like the diaries to be right next to the text like they were on the old site :)
  •  I love that the orange is more orange (none)
    and the rest of it is okay too.  something new always takes some getting used to.  but it woke me up this morning and that's got to be a good thing.

    Flush left is a little weird.  I feel like I'm going to fall off the edge of the screen.  but I'll cope.

    thanks, Markos!

    "This is how liberty dies -- to thunderous applause." - Padme Amidala

    by marjo on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 06:03:37 AM PDT

  •  old version looked better (4.00)
    I don't mind the new navigation at all but I don't like the appearance. The old version was very classy. This one just looks awkward....
  •  I wish (none)
    Kos would match the Orange on the top.

    GOPSpell: You'll Laugh! You'll Cry! You'll Kiss your Freedom Bye-Bye!

    by akierig on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 06:05:08 AM PDT

  •  Well, it's an excellent intervention (4.00)
    I've been looking for some help in spending less time here...and this is like aversion therapy for my dk addiction.

    The selfless move is much appreciated.  

    "Why, Tom, we're the people that live. They ain't gonna wipe us out. Why, we're the people--we go on." Ma Joad, The Grapes of Wrath

    by rocketito on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 06:05:57 AM PDT

  •  How about if we don't care? (none)
    I'm a content guy.  The window dressing doesn't affect me.

    It's far better to uphold the Constitution and burn the flag than it is to hold up the flag and burn the Constitution.

    by beemer on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 06:09:46 AM PDT

    •  Well, (none)
      from a design/marketing point of view, you're not going to get people to look at the content if they can't stand the colors. It's especially important if there are people with visual or other impairments.

      "It's an unnerving thought that we may be the living universe's supreme achievement and its worst nightmare simultaneously." -- Bill Bryson

      by Cali Scribe on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:13:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Format change = like having ADHD (4.00)
    UGH to your format change. My mind comes here for enrichment--which can only come with the patience reading requires--but the new design makes is taking too much mental energy.  

    I don't have ADHD.  But your new format does.

    Tikkun Olam: Heal the world.

    by diamondpen on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 06:11:22 AM PDT

  •  No, not the old "put the main content... (none)
    in a skinny little column in the center" design!


  •  Yuck (4.00)
    Too militant.

    I prefer Klassic Kos.

  •  The font looks too militant (4.00)
    Think when it's on TV.
  •  If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It -- Old Not Broke ! (4.00)
    This sucks pond scum.  

    Thought maybe it would be better this morning than it was late last night.  

    It is actually worse early in the morning.

    So friggin harsh.

    Markos, someone is blowing smoke up your ass.

    Your boys might be good at writing code, but they have no taste and no sense of judgment.

    You took the most sophisticated blog on the web and converted it into a "me too" look and now you are look just as bad as all the others.


    The test now, will be to see if you have the courage to correct this horrible mistake.

    BTW, were is the frigging Recommend Button?

    •  I couldn't agree with you more (none)
      You took the most sophisticated blog on the web and converted it into a "me too" look and now you are look just as bad as all the others.

      And I seriously used to admire the way kos looked before this change. I used to think how cool this site was there simply was nothing that came close. It was real disappointing to see this "new" look.

    •  Agree (none)
      I'm generally not at all weird about things changing... I'm pretty alright with change.

      But this looks like you took a clan of fifteen year olds and said "how can we make it EDGY?". I even love orange... but orange is tricky, and it can go from crisp and alert to garish and ugly with a flick of the wrist. And the combo of bright over-the-top orange with the radioactive green in some places screams... I don't know what it screams, but it definitely screams. Plus it's the orange-red of emergency vehicles, and it makes things feel very, very busy as my eye can't pick which LOOKOVERHEREORANGE thing to focus on.

      The old design on this site was visually interesting and yet still looked polished and and clean. This looks screaming, garish, and like something a kid would do -- it reminds me of a used car lot or a carnival ride. Awful colors, awful layout, hate the pseudo-military feel of the logo, which just looks like it's following, really late, that militaristic logo trend of the cheerleading TV war commentators...

      All of these things I can live with if I must, but I was far, far more impressed with the old design. And not just because I was used to it, but because it was well done. This looks amateur and tries too hard to be "kewl" or whatever we said in the mid-90's, before anybody knew jack about web design. Not to mention actual readability problems.

      My copper coins.
  •  Too bright somehow (4.00)
    This new design makes my eyes hurt. The old was "calmer" somehow. Too bad. I spend hours on this site and I predict I'll soon go blind (because hurt my eyes or not - I can't stay away).
  •  It's ugly as shit (4.00)
    The margins are wonky, too.  I don't see the entire title for the diaries, etc.

    I can't handle too much of this.  I'll come back when it's not so damn ugly.  I'm not interested in sorting my way through half-hidden diaries and ads in the middle.

    Why put the ads in the middle?  Has that become the most important part of this site?

  •  Hate the colors (none)
    I think a red white and blue design would be better, or something not gawdawfully orange. The design scheme I like ok. Just not the awful awful orange.

    Count me as a fence sitter.

  •  you need a more exhaustive poll (none)
    i like the design; i just this think the content section needs to be wider.

    thank dog they did away with the italics in the comments section.

  •  Maybe it's Firefox, but.... (none)
    I'm finding that more and more websites have enormous margins so that 50% of the page is covered with...nothing. Borrrrrrring.
  •  Ick (none)
    Definite points for a bold change of direction.  I hate it thought.

    First, what browsers are you building for, and did you test them?  I'm getting a div or something (appears to be created in a bit of javascript) from the advertising column floating over a bit of right hand nav stuff.  Which reminds me, the new placement of the advertising is appaling, almost as though you went out of your way to offend the eye.

    The new logo sucks.  The "State of the Nation" with the star under it looks like something you copped from a book on Soviet Realism.  Unlike others, I don't mind the flag background in the title banner graphic - I kind of like the abstraction, maybe thow in a star or something if people keep complaining about it.  But please, pick another font for the "Daily Kos."  

    Huh.  I wonder how many web professionals read this site.

    •  Well, I do... (none)
      ...and I'm an information architect and user-experience consultant, and for personal reasons, I'm not going to comment about this redesign.

      I will say, though, that the job of a designer is to come up with a solution that accomodates user needs while meeting the client's other criteria for success.

      Sometimes clients aren't particularly good about articulating what it is that they're looking for. Sometimes they micromanage, to the project's detriment. Often, they simply don't have very good taste. Any of these factors, singly or in combination, can result in even the most talented designer being unable to deliver an attractive and appealing site.

      And sometimes, of course, the fault is squarely with the designer's inability to deliver something appealing within reasonable constraints.

      The point is, it's impossible to know from the outside which specific factors led to the release of a disappointing design. I like to think I do good work, but of the ~50 sites I've been involved with designing over the last five years, there are literally only two or three I'd offer to you as even partially successful. All I can recommend to you is to present your feedback to Kos as succintly and neutrally as possible, and hope that enough people agree with you to convince him that the site's best interests are served by listening.

      "One should always have one's boots on and be ready to leave." - Michel de Montaigne

      by adamgreenfield on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 10:03:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    Much easier on the eye.

    People, get over it.  Life changes, you know?

  •  I think it is to narrow, you should open it (none)
    Make the table 100% so it fits like it did before.

    I am a man without a Nation, without a voice... BushsAmerica

    by Ioo on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 06:32:43 AM PDT

  •  WHAT??!?!?! (4.00)
    Why do we have to be Republican-lite????
    Or maybe this new color scheme was purposefully created to give us Democrats an opportunity to vote where our votes would be counted???

    Get rid of it!!  It's awful!!!!
    I'm in a blue state of mind living in a GOP gulag!

    •  Please apologize for that last remark. (none)
      But seriously, this is my first comment on NewKos® and I don't like the format, for these reasons that many above have already stated:

      2.  Ads in the middle.
      3.  Too much empty space/diary column too narrow.

      I can live with the logo and orangicity if those things get fixed.
  •  good, bad, ugly (none)
    • CSS goodness!
    • Certainly not the ads in the middle of the page.
    - Ads in the middle of the page! Ack!
    • Animated, ugly distracting ads in the bloody middle of the page!!!
    • fixed spacing - half my page width is blank!
    • fragile layout - try out (but please dont submit) a comment containing a long line in a <pre>tag.
    • bugs in text formatting (e.g. see "bad" above unless it's been fixed).

    Never wear your best trousers when you go out to fight for freedom and truth. -- Henrik Ibsen

    by mik on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 06:39:22 AM PDT

  •  The old layout sucked (none)
    I [b]hated[/b] the old layout.  The ad block would move around randomly, sometimes pushing all the stories several screens down the page.  Also, sometimes diaries would randomly not load unless I turned off Javascript.  The new layout doesn't have either of those problems.  Plus, the old layout just looked tired and stale.

    The only problems I have are:

    1. Main column is much too narrow (Kos said they will fix this).
    2. The diaries column doesn't show up in stories or diaries (true also of the old layout, but it's still annoying).

    I have no idea why people have such a powerful resistance to change.  The new layout looks so much better visually, and is definately better functionally.  There isn't a single thing I prefer about the old layout, save the width of the main column.
  •  New format loads like MSNBC (none)
    I don't get all of the information on IE either at home or the office.  Just like MSNBC when it is loading I get many many multiples on one line on the page.  This goes away after it fully loads but the page is useless until it finishes loading.
  •  How Do I Feel About New Design? (4.00)
    Other than feeling like I'm in the former USSR, standing in the middle of Red Square, what with the color, aggressive border, and that little star thingy. . .

    Other than the overly active border's heavily drooping title bars that seem ominous and suggest dripping blood. . .

    Other than the too much white space/wasted space eyeball unfriendly narrow column widths that hype the "busy-ness" rather than the readability. . .

    It's OK by me.  But why are all the title bars so big?  Is the KosDemographic getting old and going blind?

    Kos justifies the look by saying, "After all, we're at war."  Yeah -- but does the site have to look like we're on a lunatic rampage?

    They burn our children in their wars and grow rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

    by Limelite on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 06:50:10 AM PDT

  •  A reminder (none)
    Just wanted to remind everyone bitching about the site layout, colors, etc that Kos has stated that other templates will be available.  This means that if you don't like the colors or the layout or what have you, you'll be able to pick a different one that suits your personal tastes.  That's one of the benefits of going to a CSS based formatting system like this one.  A simple style sheet can change the way it looks without buggering up the content.

    My suggestion, instead of bitching and moaning about how ugly the colors are and so on, wait until they get the technical bugs worked out and release the other templates.  And if we're lucky, Kos will release a sample style sheet so that people will be able to create their own and completely customize the look.

    We'd be a lot more productive in making the transition smoother by providing constructive criticism about what works and what doesn't, rather than worrying about the aesthetics at this point.

    Just my two cents.

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it... Mark Twain

    by Lipo on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 06:51:58 AM PDT

  •  My first response (none)
    was "Holy shit!"  I'd seen the posts that the redesign was coming, but of course I'd forgotten.

    My second response was, "Cool."  (Tecnically, it was my third response, because I actually said "Holy shit" twice.)  Of course, in reading Markos' front-page comments, he's already gone a little greyscale, so I wasn't subjected to the glare problem some were complaining about.

    But I like the orange.  And orange, mind you, is one of my least favorite colors on this planet.  But I like this orange.  It's bold, it's strong, it's in your face.  And that's pretty much what this site is, especially where the right wing is concerned.

    The ads in the middle are kinda weird, but I can get used to that, and tune them out as needed.  The fixed-width thing will be fixed at some point, so I can live with that for the time being.

    So really, I have no complaints.  And change is a good thing, for the most part.  So I say "rock on" to the new design.

    All of life is an unanswered question, but let's still believe in the dignity and importance of the questions. - Tennessee Williams

    by Leslie in CA on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 06:52:43 AM PDT

  •  I can barely see the diaries! (none)
    The diaries have half their posts on the right side of the screen taken off.  I can't even read the titles!
  •  Too Freakin' NARROW (none)
    Good gravy!  Scrolling was a chore guys have increased the carpal tunnel index 10-fold.

    WIDEN THE TEXT MARGINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  •  it's wonderful (none)
    i like it. i really like it. it looks very slick, industrial, and refreshingly new.

    it's a bold and innovative step markos has taken here. and it will be interesting to see if other/new sites, take some design aspects from here.

    it's very difficult to create something new, design-wise, and make it functional and intuitive.

    good job to all who created this!


  •  I was for it ... then against it ... then for it (none)
    Ol' flip-floppin' me! :-) You need more poll choices - I don't love it, but I think it's good step in the right direction.
  •  Two comments (none)
    1. Sorry, but I hate the color.  What's wrong with a pallete of deep blues, or even the old colors?

    2. Is there any way to use the full width of my screen?  I have a 1280x1024 screen, and I currently get WIDE gray bands on either side of the content.  It's like reading a site through a keyhole.
  •  I just don't care (none)
    The redesign is fine; the design before was fine. And it's really none of my business. So my "real" vote is for nonexistent Option 3 ("I don't care"). But in the spirit of the 2-party system, I embrace the new design and vote "love."

    P.S. I find one technical change annoying--I miss how, on the old version, the main text column on any page would resize with my browser window and reflow the text to match. But it's a minor quibble and this is the only time I'm ever going to complain about it.


  •  The ADs slop over the title of the posts (none)
    I can't get the columns to move so that the ADs don't slop over onto the titles of the posts so I can only see about half of each title.  Anyone else experience this?  And what is your solution?
  •  Don't like the orange (none)
    Otherwise, change is good.  Find new colors.  blue?
  •  The Logo (none)
    Reminds me of a typeface the U.S. Army would use. And the color scheme is ghastly.  Makes me feel like I'm in hell.  
  •  The Luddites have spoken, now (none)
    all you gotta do is please everyone.  Simple, right?

    Do what pleases you, to thine own self be true.  As for the dissenters, take a page from Karl Rove.  Accuse them of being card carrying wingnuts, soft on ...

  •  I voted that I love it... (none)
    Which is technically not true...but I will learn to love it.  Sometimes I (we) need to be forced to change and adapt, and this is one of those times, in more ways than one.  This site needed a shake-up, just like the Democratic Party needs a shake-up.

    Decisions are made by those who show up.

    by poe on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 07:07:58 AM PDT

  •  what I dislike (none)
    The red-orange is now too distractingly bright. The center column of front-page diaries is too narrow for comfortably reading without taking the extra time to click on each one. Having the ads between front-page diaries and lists of recommended and recent diaries is also too much distraction for my eyes, in addition to the too-bright color. (I know, I could subscribe and have them disappear, but I resent the feeling that making them so irritating might be an arm-twisting to do so, which makes me determined not to.)

    In other words, the website appears too jarring and not inviting like it used to be. I seriousy doubt I'll be spending hours on here at night between editing and bedtime anymore, unless some of these things can be changed.

  •  Ads down the middle of my screen? (4.00)
    Look, I know we want site subscriptions, but putting a strip of ads down the middle of the site is just ridiculous. It's graphic design blasphemy. It sucks hard.

    I like some of the other changes, but I just can't take a strip of ads down the middle of my screen seriously. It's really bad. As a first-time visitor, my impression is that Daily Kos is a heavily commercial site and not truly focused on discussion.

    Too much cleverness on that one. Put 'em on the side of the screen, where the rest of the universe agrees they belong.

    We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. - Anaïs Nin

    by Valentine on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 07:08:40 AM PDT


    BEWARE of counterrevolutionaries!

    REPORT all anti-social behavior to your local committee!

    Viva la Revolucion!

    Hee hee.

  •  I don't know... (4.00)
    I don't mind the DESIGN so much as the layout.  I like the old kos layout before.  Important content was in the middle with adds at the left and links on the right.

    The middle of the page should be reserved for important content as that is where one tends to focus on.  but now the middle has ads and I'm having to jerk left to get to the nitty gritty of the site.

    If Kos swapped the frontpage and ad panes it would be fine with me.

    Sorry, I have nothing else to add to this conversation.

    by DawnG on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 07:11:36 AM PDT

  •  I can't even read the (none)
    lists of recommended and new diaries.  All I can see on the right of my screen is ads, no matter how small I make the type.  And I can't read the small type anyway.  I hate it.
  •  Can't we have display option (none)
    for full screen or fixed width, it is way to narrow, I had to scroll for like two miles on this thread
  •  I though it was April 1 (none)
    This design is so godawful, I assumed it was a joke. All I see is a miltaristic banner, bright orange and a whole lot of freakin' ads. How about an alternate site - DailyKos Classic maybe?
    •  new Coke (none)
      That's an interesting idea.

      If I could have everything about the new design but go back to the old column width and line spacing I'd be happy.

      maybe this will be a stylesheet option for the change-phobic?  kos Classic?  Classic kos?

      Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 07:43:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Coca-Cola Blew It Out Their Ass With That One (none)
      Coca-Cola has already led the way to show what a disaster it is to fuck around with a proven brand.

      Coke did more to help Pepsi with that dumb stunt than Pepsi could have ever done for itself.

      There is a lesson to be learned there.  

      I bet Markos is too young to remember that fiasco.

  •  overall, i like the look of it (none)
    I like the new rust/red orange.  It's brighter and sharper.  I also like the new logo.  We are at war.

    The combo of the new logo and the new color does have a "The Doctor Is In Your Face" look about it.  Good.  Politics aint beanbag.

    At first I thought ads in the middle was OK but I admit that I finally did turn the ads off.  I'm a subscriber and have Firefox so the temptation was too great.

    I do miss the silhouette of the guy waving the flag--everytime I saw him I had a Les Miserables/One Day more moment.

    The all cap diary titles are jarring.  I don't see the point of that.

    However, the ease of use is something that I'll only know after a day of use.  The space between the lines is still creating awkward looking paragraphs.  Since we sit here and read so much, it should be reading-friendly spacing.  Having to do a lot more scrolling because of narrower columns and wider space between the lines is a pain.

    I hope kos doesn't make the predictable design mistake of creating a blog with strong visual style elements but impractical for doing large amounts of reading/writing.  This seems to be a design better suited to a blog with short diaries and short comments (and everyone here--OK, including me--is fairly long winded).

    Overall I do like the fresh bold look of it and think I can get used to everything.

    If I had never seen the other site (which was so much easier to read) and didn't have that to compare this to, I'd like this even more.

    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 07:37:06 AM PDT

  •  I just want the flag bearer back. (none)
    I come here for the content, not the design, so I've got nothing to say about that other than thank you, Kos. I run my own website and change the design once or twice a year, so I understand the need for something different every once in a while.

    My only request would be - can we get our flag guy back? Is there any chance of that? I loved the old logo with the guy waving the flag. It seemed so...human, I guess.

    Other than that, I have no complaints.

  •  Thank God for Brian Hopkins & His Blog (none)
    This change sure does make it easier to go to Brian Hopkins' blog, Dem Bloggers, at

    I hope he does not change his design so he can be another "me too" like this has become.

    I hope this shit is not contageous.

  •  I miss (none)
    I  miss the patriot carrying the flag in the Logo.

    This logo looks good, but the old one was better and "fit" the intelligence of Kossians.

    •  Absofuckinglutely !! n/t (none)
    •  Let's be honest (none)
      The changes that have been made to this site are driven by the need to annoy viewers enough that they will PAY (aka subscribe) to remove the ads that run down the middle of the page -- exactly where the eye rolls.

      I, for one, will not return unless this site is made more user friendly, instead of trying to force my eye to read ads.

      Funny, I was this close to subscribing, feeling guilty for visiting this site as often as I had for free. Not now.
  •  Did anyone else have a reaction to the title font? (4.00)
    I was shocked by the title font -- it looks like Stalinist Era Soviet type.

    Not good for our general image.

    It's not even progressive

  •  Claustrophobic (none)
    It feels Claustrophic.  I enjoyed the old format.  i could scan the front page diaries easily and then look at the recommended, followed by recent on, whst felt like, a wide field.

    The layout was already clean enough, that browsing the website was quick, simple and easy.  I suppose I'll adjust to this one but, just last night I recommended this website to a couple of people.  I think that newcomers will have a more difficult time orienting themselves to the new formate compared to the old.

    Sorry.  I'm sure it took lots of time, effort, human power and money(?).  The colors and font don't bother me that much.  I can adjust to that.


    Rage, rage, against the lying of the Right.

    by Maryscott OConnor on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 07:50:41 AM PDT

  •  Fixed Width Is the only problem (none)
    As soon as the stylesheet for liquid design is available, I'll be happy.  With the ads where they are, the content panel is too narrow.

    I guess the one thing that could be done is to put the ads to the right of the navigation in the meantime, but the advertisers might not like being outside the boundaries of a 800x600 screen.

    I like the new header a lot.

  •  Has a kinda Father Knows Best feeling (4.00)
    Among webmasters there is a tryanny of taste for the little tiny centered column just because it looks cool.  Has nothing to do with functionality.  It just looks cool.  It shouts "functionality follows form".  Give em the buzzer.  Architects since forever know form follows function.

    I just hate it when webmasters assume to know better than me, the customer, that all that wasted horizontal space is best left blank rather filled with useful information.  

    My $.02 adjusted for inflation and attorney's fees.

  •  Looks great with no ads! (none)
    I'd strongly recommend subscribing so you can turn off ads.

    Then all you get is text area with links on right. Looks great, and easier to read, too.

    I am I and you are you, and we are both each other too -- Clair Huffaker, The Cowboy and the Cossack

    by xysrl on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 08:05:11 AM PDT

  •  Every time I looked at the old logo... (none) looked like rioting in the streets, flames erupting all around.  Very disquieting.
  •  Wonkette With Diaries? (none)
    If you look at Wonkette's page design, it's basically the same as Kos 3.0, without the diaries on the right. She at least stretches the left margin all the way over to the side though.
  •  It's a little hard on the eyes, that's for sure (none)
    The background is nearly blinding and the empty side columns seems entirely wasteful.  Other than that, I'm game for seeing some tweaking and wait-and-see.  

    Definitely need to tone down the brightness all around though or we'll have epidemic migraines around here!

    Closed minds should come with closed mouths.

    by Pennsylvanian on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 08:12:25 AM PDT

  •  I like it (none)
    Although I have to say I've been a Cleveland Brown fan for 32 years. I've collected every shade of orange over the years. I've never seen such an eye-popping shade of orange before when I popped in this morning. It's the first time I had to read my monitor with a pair of sunglasses.

    Change is good, it just takes a little time to get used to it.

    One thing that kind of makes me twitch, but I'm sure I'll get used to it. I wish the middle table was just a little bit wider. But then, I run a 1280x1024 resolution.

  •  Makes you physically ill?? (none)

    You're one of three things then:

    1.  A deplorable wimp who needs to toughen up.

    2.  Someone with absolutely no perspective.  If the design of a website makes you physically ill, I wonder what the hell happens to you when you read the papers every day.  Do you consider suicide?  Do you implode?  Lose structural integrity in some other way?  Do you have any outrage in reserve for anything that ACTUALLY MATTERS?

    3.  Or you're just one of that class of people on the internet that screams bloody murder every time their favourite website changes colour or puts a button in a different location.  In which case I would say to you, don't be afraid, little one!  Change -- especially dramatic change as you pointed out while waving your bottle of smelling salts around -- IS scary for the soft of underbelly.  But you have nothing fear but fear itself.  Just say, "It's only a website" three times and click your heels together.  Honestly, it'll be OK.

    Seriously man.  Makes you physically ill?  Pull yourself together.
    •  Why are personally attacking the guy? (none)
    •  There are plenty of people (none)
      who have physical reactions to certain colors or combinations of colors.

      In fact, I don't know if it's the way the site is reflecting on my screen or what, but I'm starting to get a sick headache just reading and posting. That's not a great way to attract/keep people who might be informed by the information here.

      "It's an unnerving thought that we may be the living universe's supreme achievement and its worst nightmare simultaneously." -- Bill Bryson

      by Cali Scribe on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:26:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You may grow to realize that not everyone (none)
      is as "tough" as you seem to be.  

      There's a difference between liking change or not....and causing pain.   Presuming you wouldn't tell someone in a wheelchair who suddenly found the elevators replaced by stairs that they were "a wimp" who just didn't appreciate change, you really shouldn't tell someone who says these colors and contrast are physically painful the same thing.  Some visual nervous systems pick up lots more data than others!  To try to concentrate while bright high-contrast colors blast us in the face can shut us out of the community...

      I certainly couldn't read a newspaper if it was printed like a McDonald's french-fry box.  That's why they aren't printed like that.  Please bring on the option to tone down the color!

      "I came to see that news is what people want to keep hidden, and everything else is publicity". ...Bill Moyers, 5/15/05

      by revsue on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 01:06:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  No ads are displaying on the home page!!! (none)
    and that's the only thing I like it about it right now!
  •  oh good lord (none)
    What a thing to wake up to!  The bright screaming orange in the headings is terrible (and not subtle, by the way, for those of us who like to cruise Kos at work!)

    Mostly, I hate the ads in-between the main entries and the diary list.... that's just tacky.

    "Revolutionary change does not come as one cataclysmic moment...but as an endless succession of surprises, moving zigzag toward a more decent society."

    by saint on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 08:18:11 AM PDT

  •  Its not rendering correctly in Firefox (none)
    As entries move to the right and the text starts to hit up against the right margin, it isn't flowing to the next line as one would expect. It seems to continue to the right and off the page. When there are ads or other items in the right margin, the text disappears behind them and then reappears on the right of those things. Frankly, it seems to be a mess.

    Also, why is the left margin so large? Seems like a whole lot of wasted space.

  •  I LOVE IT (none)
    A shock to see the page come up so early in the morning, but I love it. More open, more flowing. Great!

    Anything by Loudon Wainwright III

    by Earl on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 08:21:40 AM PDT

  •  Width is wrong (none)
    Also, comments run into the ad area below the ads.

    Finally, ratio of text to spacing makes it hard to read.

    The Axis of Evil runs somewhere between K Street and Constitution Avenue.

    by DanielMN on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 08:23:41 AM PDT

  •  header is awful (none)
    Design is otherwise ok, but that header is the pits. It
    has too much of the 1930's Daily Worker feel. Isn't
    it 2005?
  •  terrible Feng Shui (4.00)
    Too claustrophobic and the color is wretched. This site's chakras are blocked, or something. As a former graphic designer I get grumpy when a design that I like and am comfortable with (be it magazine, user interface or what have you) is futzed with. The former design was extremely elegant, clean and easy to use. The color was pleasing and did not distract. Maybe I'll get used to the new one, but I doubt it. I even downloaded Firefox to see if it looked any better there but I don't see much diff between it and IE, frankly.
  •  It's refreshing. (none)
    Like plunging into an ice-cold glass of Orange Juice.  Yummm!

    I like the space - no more claustrophobia.

    My only moment of "Hunh?" occured when I tried to figure out why there are flanges added to the header design. That's the only part I don't get/like.


  •  Well (none)
    I actually kinda like it and would like it more if the following changes were made.

    The Ads need to be on the left side where they always were.  Putting them in the center brings more attention to them than to the actual front page posts.

    The Orange is a bit more "red" than it usually is in some parts.

    And the logo, needs to show the Dude holding the flag, not just his arm

    by EMKennedyLucio on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 08:34:59 AM PDT

  •  UGGG (none)
    This is bad,

    the page is fixed width.  I read this site on a variety of monitors from 1" (cell phone) to 21" and the page should resize.


    what is with the nav on the right side of the ads,

    that is truly annoying,  put the ads back in the left side.

    Also, how about a horizontal menu bar and a smaller logo.

    I would have to say I would have expected the change to be drastic, I just did not expect it to be this bad.

  •  Hard to read (none)
    I find the orange to be too bright.

    Somehow, the design is visually confusing and it is hard to keep my eyes focused on the text I am trying to read.

    Also, I have a 20" monitor and the site only uses the center two-thirds of it, wasting a lot of screen area.

    Maybe I'll get used to the new look, but it may also dissuade me from visiting as I am finding it hard to  focus on the diaries in the face of the visual clutter.

  •   601 votes - 46 % love it (none)
    601 Kossacks at 11:45 EDT have said they love the new site.

    Let's see:

    601 votes + Kos = Ohio-like electioneering.

    The LOVE ITs win!

    The sharing of joy and happiness can help us defeat the cold and darkness of this administration.--Carnacki

    by DCDemocrat on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 08:45:47 AM PDT

  •  Content, content, content (4.00)
    Why does anyone come to DailyKos?  It's not the ads, it's not the swell neato-o interface.  It's the content.  And currently, the content is pushed into a frame that takes up less than a third of the screen.  The combined MARGINS are as big.  Blank, unused space is presented just as prominently as any front page story.  yea, I realize that's an artifact of running my screen resolution at 1024x768, but honestly- that is the resolution you have to design for.  17" monitors no longer cost 600 dollars, they're the norm.

    Honestly, its like being transported back to the net in 1996.  Fixed width windows that render correctly only on the machine they were designed on.

    Maybe the CSS sheet for variable width windows will fix it- but it should have never been presented broken.  I've got lots of respect for Kos for his use of technology, but that was a seriously stupid move.

  •  move the ads (none)
    The ads in the middle of the page really freak me out. Its  tasteless , and extremely intrusive.  I have yet to see a web page that puts ads front and center in the middle of the page, and though I have longed loved daily kos, I feel placing the ads in the middle of the page is nothing more then trying to sell subscriptions.

    And it may well work , cuz I just cant stand them being where they now are.

    I also like the old saying of"* political analysis and other daily rants on the state of the nation"*

    State of the Nation just sounds too damned corporate for my tastes.

  •  I LOVE IT!!! (none)
    No more ads, very clutter...fills my whole browser....its wonderful :)

    Oh wait your talking about the homepage....

    I'm talking about


    (note: I am not a subscriber, the new design has a nasty flaw in it that allows you to render the main pages center collumn alone without he far right loging sidebar or the right side ads)

  •  I like it... (none)
    If you don't like it, don't whine, GreaseMonkey it!

    That is all.

  •  eh (none)
    It looks better on my work computer than it does on my home computer.  But the scrolling is not as smooth as it used to be.  It must be more difficult for Explorer to render.

    "A simple lie will be believed by more people than a complex truth." - TrueBlueMajority

    by starkness on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 08:51:33 AM PDT

  •  The Edgy Look (4.00)
    Kos has said that he was going for a look on the edge. Seems to me that he has managed instead to recreate the look of The Home Depot.

    The bright orange...

    The stenciled white letters...

    The  bright white and bright orange, together creating a glare so reminiscent of flickering flourescent lighting...

    •  Now THAT is nightmarish (none)
      Yikes! Kos as Home Despot. Aieeee. OT, but I hate that place for millions of reasons. Bigbox, crappy stuff, general excessiveness of scale and level of consumption. Plus it's where people go if they want to have a meltdown fight with their mate on a Saturday. Stay away. The old corner hardware store is way better for humankind.

      Reality - Humanity - Sustainability

      by Em on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 09:33:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Check out my current diary (none)
         "BREAKING: Satan possesses Kos, makes him alter site" at , with details on the planned exorcism...
  •  "Change is good. Accept change." (none)
    ...that seems to be the overriding comment by supporters of the new look.  I think that argument in and of itself is lame.  Should we change everything, all the time -- no matter what the subject -- and pretend it's better?  (Because we're "progressives, probably?)

    Let's keep what works, people, and KlassicKos® worked, dammit!

  •  Half my screen is blank (none)
    in diary pages, since I bought a membership and can turn ads off. Posting is so slow I feel like my I'm typing through jello. I fear the new format just for the advertisers benefit.
  •  It's Not My Place (none)
    to tell the host of this site how to set things up.  It's his site - not mine.  He has the right to modify things if he wants - especially if it'll make things run more smoothly.

    Rather than rag on the guy, why not take a moment and thank him for putting this wonderful site together so we have a place to discuss the issues of the day?

  •  It is awesome for Blackberry users! (none)
    I don't have to scroll through all the ads with the new format.  We need to realize that the smaller pocket pcs with internet access will have smaller monitors.

    If we are going to take the Rove counterstrike to the streets, it will be advantageous to have mobile pcs with easy to use blog sites.

    Good job Kos and thanks for thinking ahead.

  •  Column Width, Color/Construction Emulsification (none)
    Well, I think most people will get over their qualms. This always happens when any site is redesigned. Obviously the column widths for main entries are way too narrow. And the orange on the toolbar doesn't match the orange on the logo at all. There's a lot of toning down and emulsification work to be done. I really think it's funny some people are talking about leaving this site though!

    "Victory means exit strategy" - George W. Bush 4/9/99 | Why Did They Hate America?

    by Addison on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 09:12:09 AM PDT

    •  Logo (none)
      I think the logo is big enough that it can be extended ONTO the toolbar (currently BRIGHT FUCKING ORANGE). I hope that understandable. You can have the toolbar be an extension of the logo (the overflow of the graphic unused by the current header).

      Also the tabs on the user page shouldn't be green. If the whole SITE were sage green that would look fine, but with the orange that gray green is weird.

      Anyway, extend the unused logo portions over onto the currently radioactive tangerine toolbar frames.

      "Victory means exit strategy" - George W. Bush 4/9/99 | Why Did They Hate America?

      by Addison on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 09:18:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Voted hate, but not really (none)
    I made a comment in the initial diary about the design. I wish you had offered more than 2 choices i the poll. I only chose "hate it" to indicate my displeasure with certain aspects, and not that I wish to return to the older design.

    I do find it interesting the many resistent voices to change. Even from those who state they are not conservatives.

    "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." - FDR

    by Vitarai on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 09:16:04 AM PDT

  •  Too Orange! (none)

    Just dial back the orange a bit and widen the margins and your good to go...
    •  radioactive tangerine (none)
      The toolbar orange is what you mean, right? Don't you think it'd look better if the radioactive tangerine color was replaced by an extension of the muted, gritty logo graphic? The logo's been blown up to much I bet it could be used for those other bars as well, and then we would've have the clash between respectable and radioactive orange.

      "Victory means exit strategy" - George W. Bush 4/9/99 | Why Did They Hate America?

      by Addison on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 09:20:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hard for me to read (none)
    for many of the reasons sited. The table problems (on the right side when I enlarge the text) happen for me in both Safari and Firefox. The contrast of colors (or lack of contrast, really) are hard on the eyes -- particularly the hard-edges on all the graphics. I suppose no matter what you do ,there will be complaints -- but there seems to be too much going on the front page. And I hate the orange on top of the white. It's always been hard to read. Booman is easier to read and it has/had an identical design -- because of the cooler and lower-keyed color.
  •  The. Orange. Is. Vile. (none)
    Everything else I can live with.  

    The good news is that the orange can be taken care of with one of these skins Kos is talking about.  Looking forward to that, you bet.  

    Skins I'm looking forward to:

    • White and Traditional ScoopKos burnt orange
    • Black and New CokeKos intense orange (I figure the orange will work better with black than with white)

    The bad news is I worry that new readers will hate it and kill the nassty window before they even know there are skins available.  
  •  Ouch! My eyes! <n/t> (none)
  •  Fix the width thing and the world will be right (none)

    "'Cause it's getting kind of quiet in my city's head / Takes a teen age riot to get me out of bed right now" Sonic Youth

    by spot on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 09:25:14 AM PDT

  •  a suggestion (none)
    we all need a little more fresh air and sunshine.
  •  Hate only... (none)
    Because it seems to be seriously in need of debugging, at least on my Camino browser. Some pages have things all out of whack -- borders behind text and comments all over the place.

    As far as what it looks like,  I had an immediate negative reaction, but that's probably just unfamiliarity. Fix it and we'll see.

  •  Retro 1996 Look - ouch!!! (none)

    Just put the pie ad back and you have successfully managed to screw up a great site.

    Guess Kos is going for site revolution not evolution.

    Thoughts from Connecticut - Recommended Reading - Growing Up Red

    by ctsteve on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 09:27:04 AM PDT

  •  Im waiting (none)
    for Version 4.0 and i'll keep checking in to see when I can return to reading Daily Kos, well daily.


  •  Bizarre (none)
    I just don't get all the fuss.  The same words, features, etc., are here, just in a slightly different place.  Are we so completely incapable of adapting?  Good lord.

    "The people have spoken. The Bastards." -- Mo Udall

    by Dissento on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 09:35:29 AM PDT

  •  Not too thrilled with the design change because (4.00)
    1.  The colors hurt my eyes.  It's too harsh for me.  It's not necessarily this color but this type of harsh grinding color.  Perhaps a slightly softer version of this color would be nicer.

    2.  The ads in the middle column are annoying.  They're a distraction.  When I'm reading I want to focus on reading and not bumping my eyes over the ads in the middle.  I know that this sight is funded by their revenue but it really is a pain.  I liked them better where they were previously.

    3.  I'm going to try and give it a few more days.  The previous version was very appealing and comforting.  It had a very nice community feel to me.  Now I feel like I'm at war.  Perhaps that is the intent of this new version.  
  •  1980 Russia (none)
    Very Soviet looking.
  •  At least (none)
    go back to somethng closer to the old banner and change the orange from prison jump suit color back to the more old-fashioned orange of the banner.  I feel bombarded and imprisoned by this new scheme and I think it may scare newcomers away.
    Kos deserves all the thanks and respect possible, for giving us this wonderful site.  He's a hero.

    And I will stipulate that ANY design will make plenty of people unhappy, and will bring out endless nitpicking.

    That said...

    I think it sucks.  Very ugly and less user-friendly than before.

    The great Daily Kos deserves better.

    But I'll certainly not be leaving, since I love this community too much.  And hell, I'm sure I'll adapt.

    There's my 1 cent.

  •  Ça ira - FR. It will go well... (none)
    Maryscott is raging, raging...
    There is one GCW comment in the morning Open Thread...

    So, all is well with the world, and it will go well, non?

    •  Non, non, un millier de chronomètre non (none)
      Non, tout n'est pas bien. J'ai dormi dessus, m'est débarassé des annonces avec $40, changé à Firefox... rien ceci ne fait n'importe quel améliorer. C'est un DESASTRE fichu.

      Rage, rage, against the lying of the Right.

      by Maryscott OConnor on Sat Jun 25, 2005 at 11:07:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If you want to see an exhaustive survey . . . (none)
    I will recommend if you edit the inflammatory title and comments.  It's not what you would call an unbiased survey.

    The sharing of joy and happiness can help us defeat the cold and darkness of this administration.--Carnacki

    by DCDemocrat on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 09:50:48 AM PDT

  •  okay I've resisted so far (none)
    but I have to say it.

    The pie thing was a viable argument-- NOT the stupid ad, but it was important because the underlying issues were important.

    BUT Spending time arguing about Markos changing the layout of HIS website?

    Right now?

    with the shit that's going on in the real world?

    what are you people smoking?  Who the fuck  cares what the website LOOOOKS like? What does it matter?

    Websites change their design every day.  Your friends change the furniture in their living room- do you whine and bitch and moan when you come over or do you sit down and talk about politics and how to make things better?

    C'mon, let's deal and move on. This is small, piss-ant stuff.

    Cheney, Rove, Bush, Rice, Iraq, Rumsfeld, kos web redesign

    which of these things doesn't belong?  

    •  Why we care (4.00)
      Many of us send people over here to read what's written. I recommended several of the DSM diaries to my in-laws when they confessed that they were uninformed as to what the fuss was all about.

      Web design and marketing students know that to attract people, a site must be:

      • frequently updated
      • eye appealing
      • user friendly

      Frequently updated we've got down pat. But the eye appealing and user friendly categories definitely need some work. The ads take up the middle column so that you can barely read what the diary titles are. In some diaries, the comments bleed over into and under the ads, rendering the comments unreadable -- why the hell should I post what I'm thinking if no one can read them? And the colors are blinding, though I think it's more the brightness of the white background than the orange link texts.

      I know some of the problems are bugs that are being worked on. But I'm going to hesitate linking to any diaries over here because I know that people's vision might be affected...and that's going to hurt the larger vision of informing the public and bringing sanity back to this country.

      Here endeth the rant...

      "It's an unnerving thought that we may be the living universe's supreme achievement and its worst nightmare simultaneously." -- Bill Bryson

      by Cali Scribe on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:39:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  blinding? (none)
        vision affected?

        I'm sorry. I can't take your comment seriously.  I simply can't.  It's high contrast, I give you that.  But it's hardly harmful.  I'm a middle aged woman with fairly poor eyesight- I wear trifocals and do editing for a living- and i've had no problem at all -- I've read the same amount of kos I did before the change over.

        I mean no disrespect and I will agree that there is klunkiness with graphics and the lines bleeding over but I honestly think , my honest reaction, is the tone of much of the comments, is overly harsh.  

        And seriously, it's in no way hazardous to anyone health.
  •  lines (none)
    I don't have any strong opinions on the change, but something should be done about the grey line between the text and ads that now cuts directly through some of the text.
  •  i hate the font (none)
    I hate the font used for the new logo.  Very cheap looking and amateurish.
  •  My Take (none)
    New design is good, but a few kinks...

    Ads in the middle column of the page, I am not a fan of...
    Rather see ads to the side, left was good before.

    And the vertical dashed lines were a little in the way on diary pages where the comments started all the way to the left, but not that bad (to me).

    All in all... the technological advancements outweigh the eye candyness.  


  •  i'm with maryscott (none)
    i have a very visceral reaction to the whole thing.  no sir, i don't like it.  i understand kos said we could have skins to make it look like we want, but will that move the advertising back to the side?  this sux0rs.

    the orange isn't as pretty as the old one and i miss the fellow waving the flag already.  this page isn't nearly so inviting as the simple understated orange of yesterday.  the banner font will give the freepers pages upon pages of "commie liberal" fodder and the diary title font is harder to read now.

    if none of the site functionality (search, ways to prevent duplicate diaries, etc.) was improved by this, then i just don't understand the rationale behind it.  ugly, ugly, ugleee.  meh

    is there a skin to make it look exactly like the old kos?

    •  Ads-B-Moved (none)
      With the increased reliance on stylesheets, the ad column and sidebar can be swapped without worry.

      Per a comment I posted on the last open thread, you can do so already, but with one drawback -- setting a custom stylesheet in your browser means it could alter all sites instead of just this one.

      "so long to you moderates / it's time for getting down"


      by fivesideagon on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 10:31:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Advertisement placement (none)
    I think I would prefer the advertisements back on the sides.  I find them quite distracting.

    Otherwise, the new design is fine.

  •  It's bad-ass, let it grow on you (none)
    I think this is bold. The old dKos looks dusty, but this one's on fire. Give it time.

    Truth doesn't take sides

    by KingJames on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 10:18:43 AM PDT

  •  Two comments: (4.00)
    1. I really really don't like the narrow column format of the posts on the main page.  It's a complaint I've had with Josh Marshall's site and the Huffington Post as well.

    2. Aesthetically, the front page reminds me of old socialist propaganda posters.  Not a good idea for a left-wing website.
  •  "Daily Kos" at top looks unAmurican (none)
    Maybe it hasn't changed and I just never noticed it, but the shape of the letters of the "Daily Kos" title at the top of the page, especially the "K" in "KOS", looks like it came off an old Soviet recruiting poster.
  •  holy crap, kos (none)
    look at the latest C&J.

    then fix it. i haven't looked at the css, but i assume a {overflow: hidden;} rule on the main column would do the trick ;)

    ... and when they come for you?

    by kennyt on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 10:30:08 AM PDT

  •  My problem is simple... (none)
    I don't care about colors or font or whatever.  I don't like how the main posts/stories aren't as prominent on the main page anymore.  Relative to the old site, it's lost in the sea of ads and hotlists and such that are competing with your eyeballs on the top of the page.  It's way to crowded on the main page.

    Now, when you click on a diary or story - that page looks perfectly fine with me.  
  •  I for one (none)
    am not going to post a new diary until the kinks get worked out simply because the backlash of the new look is weighing too heavily.
  •  Ick (none)
    as a UGA grad who hates all things orange (Auburn, Florida, Miami, Clemson), I must say it is, um, icky. My mother's rule: Don't go to Florida. No one looks good in orange."

    Anyway, the ads overlap the beginning of the diaries on my screen, like the text box is too big. So the first few letters of the left side of the diary box are missing.
  •  you "love it" people (none)
    ... must hate America!  

  •  It has a (none)
    certain Communist feel and look to it.

    All that's missing is the hammer and sickle.  Seriously.

    The top of the board must be redesigned immediately.

  •  Oh yea. (none)
    We need to lose the stars as bullets.

    Circles would be good.  

    The stars are just contributing to the Communist feel of the new top.
  •  Miserable and a partial fix (none)
    It's not even worth going into detail about the fonts, or the two-kinds-of-plaid effect achieved by the logo and saturated orange.

    On my 12" Powerbook, the ads and sidebar take up half the space in my window.  The site is completely unreadable.

    For the moment, giving Safari a style sheet like:

    #ads  {
       display: none !important;

    #main {
      width: 502px !important;

    helps alleviate the problem somewhat.  I know the bare minimum about CSS, so the result isn't pretty, but somebody who knows what they are doing might be able to salvage something in the new design.  

    If you think you're that far ahead, then get the chips in the middle of the table!

    by theran on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 10:51:17 AM PDT

  •  I liked the old picture (none)
    The old picture had a person waving the flag - which is cool - not a disembodied flag. And the GI Joe font just freaks me out a tad.
  •  asdf (none)
    Make the main column (comments, diaries, etc) wider.  It's way too narrow.  Incidentally, if you're using Opera, you can get a wide column by switching to "user mode" (View>Style>User mode), which gets rid of all the CSS.

    Not convinced by the orange either.  It would be nice to have a load of different colour schemes and layours that you could switch to using a control panel or preferences page.

    Other than that, I'm not too bothered by it.  It's the content that's more important.

    "[f]ree societies will be allies against these hateful few who have no conscience, who kill at the whim of a hat." Geo. W. Bush, 2004

    by VincentVega on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 11:21:33 AM PDT

  •  Speaking as a designer (none)
    You never open up design to the democratic process - you'll end up with complete mediocrity... I've been through it too many times. Everyone has an opinion... a brilliant opinion.

    I applaud Kos for having the vision to tap Zeldman and Meyers to build it right. Give 'em some space, let them finish - if you're not up on css, then just chill - it's powerful stuff once it's put in place properly. I'm sure there will be plenty of skins to make you happy once all is settled.

    You'd think this design change was just one more Rovian distraction - don't lose focus.
  •  The designers are working for Karl Rove. (none)
    Yes, it's that bad. What the f*** are those vertical lines on the screen?
  •  LOVE THE NEW DESIGN! (none)
  •  This is a great clear format (none)
    this new layout. I'm glad to see the old logo go. As good as it was, the change is refreshing. The site is alive and I don't mean with the sound of music. In with the new. Great.

    Darkness washed over the Dude...darker than a black steer's tookus on a moonlight prairie night...there was no bottom

    by moon in the house of moe on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 11:46:24 AM PDT

  •  Don't like the (4.00)
    ads being in the center of the page. Are the ads the most important thing about the blog?

    "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." Thomas Jefferson

    by llih on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:31:21 PM PDT

  •  I don't care for much about it (none)
    The new header logo and layout reminds me of an account anyone can have over at  The issue of the left and right margins is huge for me - it's difficult to follow comment threads, the text of the comments by necessity has to be smaller, and following a thread becomes problematic in such limited real estate.  Further, it's easier to "break" margins in diaries (unintentionally) and the left/right scrolling to read comments is annoying as hell.

    Is it just me or are there fewer comments on recommended diaries since the 3.0 launch??

    The revolution is coming... and we ARE the revolution.

    by RenaRF on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:35:22 PM PDT

    •  And also (none)
      When I first saw the design and fonts, I thought of Patton.  If that's the new font and color scheme, I can live with it.  But WHAT is UP with the vertical lines and the comments spilling over them??

      The revolution is coming... and we ARE the revolution.

      by RenaRF on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:40:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's Markos' site... (none)
    ...he can do whatever the hell he wants with it.
    Are any of you saying, "Ooh, it's not pretty anymore, I won't post anything on the world's most popular political blog." or "I cannot possibly take anything on DKos seriously because the orange is FAR too saturated and the fonts are funny and the MSM are looking at this site all the time and they are NOT going to like it."? I kinda don't think so.
    Incidentally, and totally off the subject, it's more than a little fun to say, outloud, "The fonts are funny." Just saying...\
    You want design elements that leave you breathless? Go find my best friend Therese who used to work in a furniture store in Lombard, IL -- she'll hook you up. (BTW, she's drop-dead gorgeous.)
    Don't let the wrapping paper diminish the gift inside, people. ("Don't judge a book...yaddayaddayadda")

    "I have come here to chew bubble gum and to kick ass...and I'm all out of bubble gum. Oh -- have you read the Downing Street Minutes yet?"

    by Newton Snookers on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:41:50 PM PDT

  •  Erk (none)
    I really don't like it very much -- I'm always gung ho for change, and there are some good parts to the redesign, but after browsing for an hour or so, it's defintely confusing, and not what I'd call utilitarian. Plus all the bugs. An ungodly number of comments disappear into the great beyond of the ad bar.

    It's almost like TPM Cafe, which is nice and I like it, but I think this one seems to hide the diaries in some way. I do like the larger print though -- I don't have to lean forward in my chair to read.

    Personally, I would just stick with this, since the change is made, and try to adjust some of the favorite things from Daily Kos 2.0 back into the current format, but keeping the favorite things.

    Or, if Markos wanted to splurge on bandwidth, he could make the entire site flash friendly, like the My.Msn pages, so we can move everything around and personalize to our hearts content!

    If th' meek ever do inherit th' earth some one'll git it away from 'em before they have it an hour

    by NorthStarDemocrat on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 12:44:36 PM PDT

  •  In a week . . . (none)
    . . . no one will remember what the site used to look like.

    People always whine when things change . . . and they always get used to the new look.

    No big whoop.
  •  It's the orange (none)
    wouldn't blue work?  
  •  Totally pathetic! (none)
    I'm going to be blunt.  My first thought was I'd clicked on the wrong link and somehow ended up on a soviet propaganda page.  I think your taking "kossack" a bit too far!  My god.  What do you imagine someone unfamiliar with the site will think when they see a page image shown on CNN or some other "blog segment"?  Now that you've got that image in your head queue the reporter saying "Today on Daily Kos" and THEN the stereotype will sink in further what with that nice new orange soviet-style star and all!

    Heck, didn't Kos himself just suggest that the group "Kossack Women" or somesuch should choose a different name?  Image is important, so why not a nice soothing blue theme with patriotic flags and stuff?  Keep the orange with the text, and navigation part!

    I won't even get into all the visual display problems and the lack of rigerous testing, but I was expecting better.

    Also, I think my earlier suggestion way back of providing an alternate link to try the new site would have been a good idea.  THEN, you could have gone live with a variety of css themes and let people vote for the default and everyone would be happy we live in a democracy :)
  •  The Design.. (none)
    is pretty cool in my opinion, it takes our minds a while to get confortable with a new design, so why don't you haters give it a few days before announcing it is the end of your blogging career.

    I also have a little rant about that, all those people who say they will be leaving the site, just because they aren't a fan of the layout are fucking lame. We aren't building a community of bad-ass web designers here, we've built a community of words and ideas, and those words and ideas are still going to be here even w/ a new design.

    with that being said, I don't like the ads in the center of the screen, hopping the grand canyon to get to the recommended diary list is really annoying, but I won't be going anywhere because of it.
  •  If it's one thing liberals are good at... (none)'s bitching and complaining (and I say that as a liberal who's damn good at it).

    What's the point of some of you saying "if it doesnt' change I'm leaving!" like you're some integral cog in this site. Oh no! Random User #1584039 is threatening to leave!

    Wait for the new style sheets options. Trust me on this. Once Kos gets the new style sheets implemented there will probably be alot of options for people to be able to view the site how THEY want to.

    Bitching and complaining and threatening to leave only serve to make you look whiny. Constructive criticism and patience with new site design will lookmuch more, how should I say it, adult.

    I'm sure I'll get flamed and troll rated for saying this so harshly, but alas my patience is thin today.  (just don't go accusing me of being a republican for me "it's what liberals are good at" comment. Read my diaries, read my website before you make an accusation like that.)
  •  hmmm (none)
    I don't think I would walk into someone else's abode, tell them I hate their decor and I'll never be back until they change it.  Whatever Kos wants.
    •  Re: hmmm (none)
      Hmm... Hey, I walked into the Democratic Party and found out they can be spineless wimps, and don't have a clue on how to manage media message.  Why shouldn't I tell them to get a clue as we seem fond of doing here all the time!

      If Kos wants to become instapundit and post just his views of the world he's welcome to it and he can design his site how he wants.  However this site has been promoted as a "community" and its viability is dependant upon pleasing those who contribute time and effort (not to mention those who pony up money) to help keep it alive.

      Most importantly, at this point in time Kos's popularity makes this place IMPORTANT and anything that in my opinion jeopardizes that status is bad.  This doesn't mean that Kos should pander to everyone's whims or that it's possible to please everybody but OVER HALF of the people on the poll don't like it.  That's BAD.

      I bet a majority of those polled would have responded favoribly instead if the site has small display problems and not the dramatic new look.  Of course I bet an overwhelming majority are annoyed with the ad placement which just sucks.
    •  booger (none)
      The other respondent to your post makes some good points.  

      The layout is a refreshing change, however, it also impedes functionality.  That is bad.  

      I agree about the threatening to leave part of your statement.  I have lost a significant amount of respect for those who have said they are going to leave over the layout.  

      Something should be done or the new layout will have a net negative effect on the community.  However, Kos, has shown a willingness and ability to be responsive to the community so here's to being hopeful.
  •  WHY the unused space on the left and right? WHY? (none)
    This is a text-heavy site. The previous design meant I could see more than one article at a time, and more linked articles also.

    This design has all this wasted space on the left and the right, that serves no purpose.

    Design should be an aid to function, not a hindrance.

    Harsh, maybe. But everything else is ok with me. It's just the wasted space that's killing me.

    "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

    by jbeach on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 01:26:47 PM PDT

  •  Take a cue from DU. (none)
    This website content is much better but the new view sucks.
  •  I suck at analogies (none)
    Patient: My agent says I should get plastic surgery.  I think I'm naturally beautiful, what do you think?

    Doctor:  You are naturally beautiful.  It's what is in your heart that counts.  I simply could not operate on you.  Also, you should probably stop tanning so much, your skin has gone past nicely toned and is becoming a burnt orange.
  •  Bad poll. (none)

    And I'm not participating in it.

    To many people---in fact I would suggest the majority---this isn't a "love it" or "Hate it" thing (which, in fairness, you did mention).  But I think it's important to add those shades of like/dislike/no opinion.  You have 12 options you can create with a poll...using more than two would've been more helpful, especially to the person in charge: Kos.

    Besides, it doesn't take into account that this is the first day, and there are many bugs to be worked out.

    For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of the change.  But I'll give it time---as we all should---before I shout, "Off with your head!"  Besides, I've already yelled myself hoarse after using that phrase on my neighbors for the last 6 hours.  They think I'm creepy.  Heh Heh.
  •  Here's my DailyKos Design (4.00)

    And here's a link to my diary on this.

    The goal of my design is that you can always see the RECCOMMENDED AND RECENT DIARIES boxes even if you are reading a diary... and that you never have to scroll using the Firefox scrollbars and can keep the information you want visible while you scroll the diary lists.

    " admirable evasion of whoremaster man, to lay his goatish disposition to the charge of a star!"

    King Lear

    by Norwell on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 02:28:14 PM PDT

  •  ah, just like a new sofa (none)
    you kind of miss the old comfortable one, where you just could put your feet up and do whatever, and the new one, of it's much nicer, better and stylish, but ... kinda too new for messing with it.

    I guess I'll like it in a week or so.

    Human life should be governed by truth, freedom, justice and love.

    by mimi on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 02:28:58 PM PDT

    •  actually no, I don't like it (none)
      1. Logo takes much too much space
      2. the shorter line width is good, because it's easier to read, but in the comment sections the line width overlays the grey space at both sides and is too wide.
      3. I don't like the "font" for the word dailykos within the logo.
      4. I don't like the upper right hand hanging towel-like thingy with the text "The State of the Nation"
      5. I really, really don't like the second column with all the ads. What is there, if you turn off the ads, empty space? That would be a waste.
      6. The font of the right hand column is too large and thick
      7. The site has the feeling of "sensationalizing" dailykos.

      Well, I am just a mean, tired something anyway.

      Human life should be governed by truth, freedom, justice and love.

      by mimi on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 02:42:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Please put the search box on top of the page (none)
        directly under "tools" and above of "Recommended Diaries".

        Human life should be governed by truth, freedom, justice and love.

        by mimi on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 02:51:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  really, it's not good (none)
          it's distracting you from reading focussed and concentrated. I gladly pay subscription, if the site really needs that much ads. This site should be heavily leaning towards text and commentary, "splashing effects" should be in the background if at all.

          Human life should be governed by truth, freedom, justice and love.

          by mimi on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 02:59:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Can't say I care for it. (none)
    I really, really liked the previous design. Compact, text-heavy, and organized well. It gave me what I needed quickly.

    This I don't like because everything looks spaced out too widely, as others have commented. Also, the ads column is showing up in the middle, with articles to the left and the sidebar to the right. Part of the ads column is blocking the sidebar.

    I use a standard browser with no unusual settings(IE 6.0) so it should just display normally.

    That top graphic bar is not attractive, either.

    Previously there were single lines separating the comment from the info below it saying who it's from, time posted, etc. This was a useful visual aid because it easily distinguished the comments from each other.

    The old design was great. I was not involved with the planning to alter it but I would have suggested, and do so now, that they not change a good thing.
  •  I have to say... (none)
    I was not so keen on all these changes but the site loads much, much faster for me now. Could be because I was forced to use Mozilla but long threads like this i would have skipped before because I'm on an old slow machine.
  •  HATE THIS! (none)
    I really hate this new format. If anything is changed, the ads need to be moved back to the left handside. Its overkill with them in middle, and it clutters the entire page.
  •  What kind of a poll is that??? (none)
    How about C. It's good for a change......I don't love it but because I don't hate it I was compelled to select that I love it.  
    How simplistic and superficial to boot.  
    •  I explained my position on that. (none)

      Conduct your own poll.

      To me (and I hope to Kos), this poll was very useful.

      If you were sitting anywhere on the fence, then one was most likely not to participate in the poll.  I know I wouldn't have.

      This poll was to get an idea of "how many people really love it" vs. "how many people hate it".

      I didn't want any confusion over "degrees" of liking it or not liking it.
  •  I wish we had the old design (none)
    But hey, its the ideas of this community that count-- not its appearance, right?!
  •  the new design is fugly (none)
    that's right.  i said it.

    "Private property means you get nothing"
    -Jeff Ott

    by mediaprisoner on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 02:55:01 PM PDT

  •  I need glasses (none)
    and find the new site easier to read.  So did my eight year old who is learning to read.  She said, "That's KOS you are always talking about?"  She then read me headlines from acorss the room.

    Keep the larger fonts.

    But who cares.

    Why not plan a beautiful summer vacation in the New York State Finger Lakes region? Wines, lakes, cheeses, vistas...

    by Percheronwoman on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 02:58:04 PM PDT

  •  OMG (none)
    There are THREE lines down this page as separators AND the menu is at the bottom

  •  the ad column is distracting (none)
    by moving the advertisements into a more central position, dKos has allowed them greater visibility but I find them very, very distracting.  They should be returned to the far right column.  

    May all beings be free from fear.

    by shakti on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 03:02:04 PM PDT

    •  A cynical person might think (none)
      they are prominently placed to encourage people to subscribe to stop the ads. Not me, of course, but a cynical person.

      "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed." General Buck Turgidson

      by muledriver on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 03:04:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  didn't read comments above (none)
    i like the simplicity of the original. it had a grass-roots, no-nonsense, ideas-first feel. if i wanted to look at this, i could go to wonkette or something.
  •  This new design makes my head hurt.... (none)
    But my very soul shrieks out in agony.
  •  From a professional (none)
    No, I'm not a doctor, but I play one...

    Since this diary is totally non-political (at least not state or federal politics) I'll add my two cents.

    There are two concepts here:

    • usability, and
    • visual design

    First, usability.

    Based on industry-standard metrics, we can confidently measure the site against the following human-computer interaction prinicples:

    • LEARNABILITY - it's predictable and familiar, very closely mirroring the former edition.
    • FLEXIBILITY - allows multi-threading and assumes task migratability and subsitutability, and potentially customization
    • ROBUSTNESS - allows for recovery, helps users understand nature of errors, conforms tasks, and is responsive
    • CONSISTENCY - yes
    • INSTRUCTION - yes
    • CHOICE - adequate
    • CONTROL - adequate
    • UNIQUENESS - adequate
    • MAINTAINABILITY - only Kos knows

    Overall, the general usability of the site hasn't changed, except in a few noted instances mentioned below. The same functionality is there, along with some enhancements that will more than likely only be of interest to a small group that has specialized skills.

    Second, visual appeal.

    There are design elements, like choice of type, that are amateurish. Type is intended to help people read, and therefore comprehend. Certain type choices for onscreen display are particularly hard to read on an already straining display media and extra white space will not alleviate this problem.

    There are elements of layout, like moving the advertising column, that are understandable in the interest of monetizing the site, but are executed amateurishly. Layout should break content up into scannable chunks of information. The visual differentiation between these groups of content isn't apparent enough to aid the reader in doing so.

    Overall, the visual appearance has been degraded by a few less than optimal choices in user interface design and layout, with the unintended consequence of making some existing aspects of the site cumbersome.

    Taking tactical recommendations, like "move the logo" aren't important. Adhering to proven design and development principles is important.

    Oh, and I didn't vote int he poll.

    Chaos. It's not just a theory.

    by PBnJ on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 03:34:30 PM PDT

  •  Please move ads to the left side... (none)
    It's difficult to read text in the current format.  Thanks
  •  Safari ugliness (none)
    I'm using Mac OSX 10.3.7 here, and Kos type -- mainly the type under the gray boxes -- looks really ugly.

    Firefox looks good (just downloaded it) but Safari is my browser of choice.

    Just a request to respect your Mac/Safari users with full support.

  •  Columns run together in Safari! (none)
    I've seen a few Safari-related comments, in my browser the comments don't stay in the right hand column, they run under the ads column making that part of the sentences unreadable.  As a web designer myself, I find that type of user-unfriendliness to be unforgivable!

    I like the new desgn, but it's got to work across all platforms!
  •  Although it looks a little Russian (none)

    You all have to admit, if all the crazies were not around life would have less purpose

    by genethefiend on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 04:14:35 PM PDT

  •  Ecch. (none)
    I don't like the font, or the little stars for bullets. It looks WAY too militaristic and brownshirty for my taste.

    can we please go back to a friendly typeface like Verdana for those headers? please??????

    "There are times in politics when you must be on the right side and lose." John Kenneth Galbraith

    by susanp on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 04:18:52 PM PDT

  •  Help! (none)
    Why does the advertising column run over the posts??? Was this tested in Opera?

    I do like the colors and fonts - much easier to read.
  •  My thoughts... (none)
    ...if anyone cares, are that the entire thing would be far easier to deal with it the ads weren't in the middle of the page.

    I honestly can't recall ever seeing that before - ever. Surely the advertisers will be every bit as happy seeing their ad off to the right, or the left, rather than right down the middle of my field of view?

    Everything else - size of logos, fixed width bugs, etc, can and will be fixed, but for me, the ads down the middle crowd everything else to the point where I don't wanna read.
  •  Daily Skrolls (none)
    I just bought a great new monitor and now half the screen area is wasted.
  •  I really don't like... (none)
    the "State of the Nation" design element that wraps around the kos logo.  Also, I agree that the ad's have now become intrusive, maybe that was the intention.

    Also, I prefered the logo with the person holding the flag.  I think it was a good metaphore for a lot of things and a great branding idea.  I would like to see that graphic back on the homepage.
  •  This board sucks as bad as the old one... (none)
    The board I've been with the longest, the Gibe is so nicely organized that even though it is a ghost of what it used to be by number of posters it puts this place to shame for organization and readability.

    More is not necessarily better.

    by Linchpin on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 05:28:04 PM PDT

  •  I'll adjust (none)
    Change is always difficult, particularly when you have to change an established pattern.  I love KOS so will figure out the new... I'll bet I'm not alone in feeling this way.

    by SMucci on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 05:34:02 PM PDT

  •  Room for improvement (none)
    There is definitely something wrong with the new logo - the color intensity, the large militaristic font ... it's not ugly or anything, it's just not something you want to see every day.  The older one was much easier on the eyes.

    As for the layout, well Kos probably wants more ad hits, but I'm not lying when I say I saw each and every ad on the old layout.  Probably have them all memorized.  They were very visable, but not intrusive.  The new placement is distracting, and it's not just the animated gifs.

    Logical design would be:

    navigation/diaries > main content > ads.

    Change is not necessarily bad, there were improvements to be made on the old layout.  But this new one threw everything out and seemed to make a lot of changes just for the sake of being different.  dKos has become visually assaulting, and thats a shame.  The readability and soft presentation had a lot to do with why I gave the site a chance in the first place, superficial as that may be.
  •  it's just... (none)
    garish.  like dogs-playing-poker-on-velvet garish.

    i dunno.  i just really do not like it.  it doesn't look professional.
  •  and on further thought (none)
    I shouldn't really be commenting further

    because I don't take the conflict over the site design seriously

    I really don't.  I'm standing here shaking my head, wishing there was more comment going on about the important stuff.

    So I will respectfully bow out and leave it to you folks who do care about it to work it out amongst yourselves.  
  •  Currenty 56% of you (none)
    HATE the CHANGE? What are you all, fuckin' conservatives?

    Although I will say that traditionally orange has been a union between a red and a yellow. An orange between two reds is an abomination before God.
  •  The new design (none)
    is playing havoc with my browser- at least when I up the font for my home PC. I am using Firefox and the advertisements cover up some of the text making it unreadable. Sorry if this has been posted here before, like I say, I am having trouble reading it.
  •  Can we take a poll on this crappy poll? (none)
    What kind of answers are those?  This redesign has it's pros and cons, but I'm liking it more than the previous one.  I like KOS's vision...there's some bugs, though.

    Your poll could have been a little bit less black and white...
  •  If you don't like it, there are options (none)
    If you are using Firefox as your browser there is an easy way to make your dKos look the way you want it to.

    You can flame away on me, but this hack will also remove the blogads(on the frontpage only though). Oh well, I'm unethical, sue me.

    First you need to be using Firefox as your browser.

    Second, install the URIid extension and close Firefox

    Third, you need to locate your userContent.css file in your default Firefox Profile, which you can find following these instructions

    Fourth, make your userContent.css file have contents matching this userContent.css file(you can just replace it if you don't have anything else in there)

    Fifth, open Firefox and enjoy your new and improved or old and familiar dKos(however you want to think about it)

    This fixes:

    -fixed width layout

    -some obtrusive orange areas

    -Diary titles in all caps

  •  you know what? (none)
    I'm already used to it.  I have read for three hours now and I can't even remember the old layout.
    •  This is horrible (none)
      There are three fucking divider bars running down through the text of each persons post (INCLUDING YOURS!) and the menu is at the BOTTOM of the page.
      •  You must be using IE (none)
        You could be using Firefox and have the menu bar cover up some of the comments.  Kos has said they are working on the problem.  Hopefully he'll beta test next time.  

        The one thing I really don't like is the wasted grey space on both side of my screen - what a waste of space.

        "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

        by sgilman on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 07:40:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I like it (none)
    sort of. it's going to take a while to get used to. But I can't help but be reminded of the old russian communism, the yellow (okay orange) solitary star, the contrast of yellow and red (or in this case, burnt orange against a yellowish orange) but mostly it's the star.

    This confuses me. But I still kind of like it. Any marketing go into this design, or is this just what Markos decided to dress up his site?

    I think it's easier to use. I'm not a blogger and I'm barely computer-literate, so I don't care so much about how many of these bugs should have been fixed before running. I trust they'll be fixed in due time.

    If you can read this, then you hate freedom.

    by NeoconSemanticist on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 07:11:40 PM PDT

  •  Mines like patlibs... (none)
    text fills the screen and the advertisements are in a row at the bottom. I like it though I know it will get fixed.

    More is not necessarily better.

    by Linchpin on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 07:17:37 PM PDT

  •  I hate it (none)
    Maybe it's just that I don't like change, but there is way too much orange.  I do hate the color orange.  I want the old logo back.  The whole seems screwed up.
  •  The ads in the center are annoying (none)
    Don't like the big type; feel like I am reading a large print book.
  •  I went out of town... (none)
    for a few days (during which I had no internet, and came back only to see the site all changed.

    By any chance, did the Iraq War end and / or did Bush get impeached during my absence?


    by modchick65 on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 07:53:52 PM PDT

  •  Jeeeeezus -- it's horrid (none)

    Me sorta like the big font, but isn't good for "substance" reading.

    JEEEEZUS I  HATE the ads in the middle.

    ( I really DO -- dunno why - floresent lights )

    Put the fuckin' Man/Woman CARRYING the flag back !!

    Put the patriot back in KOS.

    IF you need a few sheckles., do it another way.

    This ain't it.

    I think possitive voters in this poll -- are kiss ups.

    I don't normally rave -- but YIKES !!
  •  When hitting submit (none)
    The margins go screwy after.

    Grrrrrrrr .....
  •  I don't hate it (none)
    But I do feel like I'm looking out a very sunny window while experiencing a severe hangover.

    Too much!

    Can we tone down the colors a little, make it more soothing and readable?
  •  Let's face it (none)
    The changes that have been made to this site are driven by the need to annoy viewers enough that they will PAY (aka subscribe) to remove the ads that run down the middle of the page -- exactly where the eye rolls.

    I, for one, will not return unless this site is made more user friendly, instead of trying to force my eye to read ads (okay, I will check in each and every day and complain out loud to myself, but not for long a visit as I used to do each day).

    Funny, I was this close to subscribing, feeling guilty for visiting this site as often as I had for free. Not now. Not unil thos ads move left or right.
  •  congratulations (none)
    it's good. keep up your left.

    Darkness washed over the Dude...darker than a black steer's tookus on a moonlight prairie night...there was no bottom

    by moon in the house of moe on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 09:22:48 PM PDT

  •  Have there been any GCNDKD diaries yet? (none)

    (NDKD = dew DailyKos design)

    Overall, I'm not a huge fan so far, but I'll wait a few days, see what bug fixes happen, and see if I "settle in" to the new design.

    Let's get serious about renewables and efficiency. It's time to Win the Oil Endgame.

    by by foot on Fri Jun 24, 2005 at 11:15:32 PM PDT

  •  This is making me crazy. (none)
    The advertisement column is right in the middle of the two columns of text... so it's very distracting trying to read stuff with them blinking away. I'm glad I'm not epileptic or I'd have a freaking seizure.

    My boyfriend is a web designer/professor, and he's really opposed to the skinny text column.


    by modchick65 on Sat Jun 25, 2005 at 09:50:56 PM PDT

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